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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
 Posted - 09/20/2011 : 17:44:24 [Permalink]
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While Marfs little student's exchange was thought provoking for the little girl, no one can say with certainty that that little girl will grow up to be a free thinker devoid of magical thinking and superstition. What? 80% of Americans are stated theists. Would 25% of that or 20% of Americans be considered very devout. I would say their education is not so different than most Americans and they are a far cry from free thinkers. H.H. believes, like me, intelligence or education to mention only two are not absolutes that produce enlightenment. Speaking of magical thinking and superstition, Perry, Palin or Bauchmann are not stupid or ignorant in their own right. I believe they and us have been exposed to much of the same material through life and look at the different results. This confounds me but it's what we got. Surely we can agree on the importance for every individual to be free of delusions misconceptions and have access to the facts not colored in anyway by the source. Not everyone gets that and not every one comes to the same conclusion who do.
If my mother was alive when I became an atheist, it would have killed her or I would have had to hide it from her until she died, out of love. My mother would not have responded like the mother below but it would have broken her heart in a profound way and I could never have that. A Catholic Mom's reaction. In the Muslim world such a revelation could very likely be replied with one's death. If Marfs little girl has "Muslim like" Christian zealot parents and we know they exist, their conditioning upon her may could cripple her all her life. Who can say.
I agree with,,,| a few rare individuals manage to overcome their childhood indoctrination with varying degrees off success |
I believe when exposed to the conditioning prescribed in how to Stop your child from becoming an atheist the results are more successful than not in spite of all other factors, in general. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2011 : 17:54:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
I am an atheist. In what way is that irrational and based on faith? Humbert says I am not a critical thinker because I think agnosticism is Victorian garbage. It has been my experience that agnostics are indistinguishable from Christians.
They both support the God hypothesis and are equally dogmatic and cruel in silencing those who do not agree with them. Agnostic Humanist Canada broke two of their by-laws to silence me for example. |
Despite being corrected over and over again about what makes us self-identify as agnostics, you clung to your dogmatic assessment through 40 pages of thread. That's what makes your position irrational and based on faith.
We will not be having the same thing happen to this thread. If you want to discuss your views of agnosticism more, you may start a new thread. Your hijacking of this one is finished. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2011 : 18:02:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
I don't have time to look it up just now, but I remember reading some time ago that porn stars are more likely to have had a conservative Christian upbringing.
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No need to look it up. Is that with American porn stars (actors)? Seeing how many Americans are "Christians", the fact would pretty much be a given. That's a factoid like, "In Iraq most prostitutes are Muslim", not that surprising. I don't get what could be conclude from that. How about, "Most porn stars in the US were raised theists". No difference. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2011 : 18:14:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Despite being corrected over and over again about what makes us self-identify as agnostics, you clung to your dogmatic assessment through 40 pages of thread. That's what makes your position irrational and based on faith.
We will not be having the same thing happen to this thread. If you want to discuss your views of agnosticism more, you may start a new thread. Your hijacking of this one is finished.
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It is important to stay on topic as much as possible. Otherwise why have Categories and Topics with separate threads. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2011 : 19:52:15 [Permalink]
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HH wrote: Right. That's why there are so few creationists in this day and age. Oh, wait...
Really, I find this attitude bizarre coming from you. You more than anyone should know that a person's individual abilities or aptitudes are often not sufficient to overcome environmental pressures and social norms, otherwise racism and sexism wouldn't be the problems they are. If the indoctrination was something other than religion, would you be saying "I don't worry too much about sexist males indoctrinating their daughters. Unless those girls live in secluded communes their whole lives away from the rest of the world, there are just so many little things they can be exposed to that will be a catalyst for developing a positive self image. And once a woman becomes employed..." |
Parents and home life are hardly the only things which influence a child. If they were, Women's Liberation would have never happened seeing as most of the women (and men) who made it happen were raised by parents with more sexist attitudes.
Indeed, conservative strains of Christianity are growing in the United States. But is that because parents are raising their kids that way, or is it because of a culture war that involves many charismatic leaders and communities successfully proselytizing? In my family on both sides all the adults are slack-ass Catholics. But of my generation of cousins, none of us practice or even identify as Catholic. Most of us ended up becoming secular humanists (although I'm the only one who actually uses that label. The rest are just generically secular.) One got all into yoga and dabbling in Eastern philosophy. One became a born again Christian in a church that is quite anti-Catholic. And one is Wiccan. Now that is all anecdotal, but then that big study Pew Foundation study of religion in America came out and showed that my family pretty well represents trends across the United States. While Americans used to just adopt the faith of their parents, today because choose from the marketplace of ideas. Indeed, most of the conservative Christian communities thriving are non-denominational megachurches who are growing their membership by drawing people away from the old mainline sects. Happily, our secular communities is also growing.
Hell, we see the same thing with attitudes toward gays. Younger people are much less homophobic. Young born again Christians are even less likely to be anti-gay (such as my one cousin who is totally born again and anti-gay in her personal morality, but she isn't politically anti-gay, and has a close relationship with her gay, atheist brother.)
All this information tells me that we don't need to worry about what parents are teaching their kids so much as we need to fight and win the culture war.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2011 : 19:56:43 [Permalink]
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ss wrote: | No need to look it up. Is that with American porn stars (actors)? Seeing how many Americans are "Christians", the fact would pretty much be a given. That's a factoid like, "In Iraq most prostitutes are Muslim", not that surprising. I don't get what could be conclude from that. How about, "Most porn stars in the US were raised theists". No difference. SS |
Most children in America are raised in Christian homes, NOT conservative Christian homes. Most people in America do not put much into their religious practice (most don't go to church regularly, for instance) and put much more emphasis on secular matters than religious ones.
I remember reading something once that said that porn stars disproportionately came from very strict, conservative religious homes. It was more than just a reflection that most Americans merely identify as Christian. That is what I was commenting on. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2011 : 21:25:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
All this information tells me that we don't need to worry about what parents are teaching their kids so much as we need to fight and win the culture war. |
But you aren't going to win the culture war simply by telling children "There are all kinds of religions out there. Pick any one you want. They're all goofy fun!" That sort of nonjudgmental pluralism might lead to less fundamentalist groups than we have now, but it guarantees a fertile field of the moderately-confused to recruit from in perpetuity.
Now I realize as an educator you cannot openly challenge the religious education of your students, but if we want to win the culture war we cannot be indifferent to what children are being taught. Almost a third of the country believes the Earth is 6,000 years old. The same third who have made politics in this country a global laughingstock and helped ruin our economy. There are consequences to doing nothing and hoping for the best.
If we really wish to effect change, we must take the stance that what those parents are teaching their children is bad. Actively. Openly. Unambiguously. Even if it means confrontation. (Sorry, Hal). We are making a moral judgment that magical thinking is bad, in the same way that racism or homophobia is bad. A moral person doesn't indulge these baser human tendencies. There needs to be a social stigma attached to the word faith the same as there now is to the word "superstition."
Accomplish that and then we'll have to worry less about religious people indoctrinating their kids.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 06:38:30 [Permalink]
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HH wrote: | But you aren't going to win the culture war simply by telling children "There are all kinds of religions out there. Pick any one you want. They're all goofy fun!" That sort of nonjudgmental pluralism might lead to less fundamentalist groups than we have now, but it guarantees a fertile field of the moderately-confused to recruit from in perpetuity. |
I completely agree. As I said, in our current cultural climate, indeed the modern, fundamentalist Christian movement is growing, and that is a bad thing. The problem is figuring out what causes certain trends and then finding strategies which work to shift things in our favor. Given that the old mainline, moderate sects of Christianity are shrinking while secularists and nondenominational fundamentalists are growing, I wonder how much of these trends have to do with the polarization of politics in the media, especially considering how much religious affiliation can be an accurate indicator of political affiliation in America. As for strategies, that is really tough and I don't have a lot of good suggestions. Mainly it seems that secular humanist PR needs to be stellar and effectively get across two things to the mainstream: 1.) All the fucked up shit that results from special exemptions for certain Christians in America, such as lower standards in Christian-run day cares and treatment centers that leads to neglect and abuses, or kids who are harmed or die from faith healing. 2.) The multitude of ways in which secular humanism is ethically superior in that it makes peoples' lives better in practical and effective ways. I think the New Atheists are pretty good at #1, and positive Humanists like Greg Epstein and most of the folks running Americans United are pretty good at #2. Ultimately I think we'll win the culture war, even if it takes a long time and we lose a lot of battles, because, y'know, we're right and they're wrong.
| Now I realize as an educator you cannot openly challenge the religious education of your students, but if we want to win the culture war we cannot be indifferent to what children are being taught. Almost a third of the country believes the Earth is 6,000 years old. The same third who have made politics in this country a global laughingstock and helped ruin our economy. There are consequences to doing nothing and hoping for the best. |
Where are you getting the idea that I advocate doing nothing? I'm the friggin' president of the Humanist Association of Greater Philadelphia. We host four events a month promoting humanist values. My local group played an instrumental role in launching the Coalition of Reason billboard campaigns around the country. I've also been a camp counselor at Camp Quest, and a leader in the freethought movement in many capacities, and I've made no secret of that here on SFN. How does my concern about possibly inappropriate and ineffective strategies get across the idea that we should have no strategies for combating the religious right?
| If we really wish to effect change, we must take the stance that what those parents are teaching their children is bad. Actively. Openly. Unambiguously. Even if it means confrontation. |
I can imagine many inappropriate, and some appropriate ways of doing this. What are you specifically suggesting?
| (Sorry, Hal). We are making a moral judgment that magical thinking is bad, in the same way that racism or homophobia is bad. A moral person doesn't indulge these baser human tendencies. There needs to be a social stigma attached to the word faith the same as there now is to the word "superstition." |
I disagree with you on the word "faith" and its associations. I think faith tempered with the health and appropriate amount of doubt can be a good thing. I also am aware of common uses of the term "faith" which can and are used in a secular way, sometimes even by secular humanists. I also don't see why it is necessary to destroy the reputation of the word "faith" in order to win the culture war.
| Accomplish that and then we'll have to worry less about religious people indoctrinating their kids. |
You haven't really offered much in the way of specific strategies, so I can't say whether I agree or don't agree with you on the matter of how to change the way people are raising their kids. That is an extremely touchy subject, with lots of potential for shooting ourselves in the foot. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Officiant
Skeptic Friend
166 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 09:11:47 [Permalink]
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Children should be educated about religion but not imbued with it. The following explains my particular concerns with the indoctrination of children.
Ontario's publicly-funded catholic school system unjust - CityCaucus ...
www.citycaucus.com/.../ontarios-publicly-funded-catholic-school-sy... - Cached - Block all www.citycaucus.com results
9 Oct 2010 – In Ontario -- where the Catholic school system was controversially extended ... The United Nations' human rights committee declared that public ... |
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Officiant
Skeptic Friend
166 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 09:28:19 [Permalink]
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If the above doesn't work just put this in google.
Ontario's publicly-funded catholic school system unjust - |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 10:40:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
HH wrote:
| If we really wish to effect change, we must take the stance that what those parents are teaching their children is bad. Actively. Openly. Unambiguously. Even if it means confrontation. |
I can imagine many inappropriate, and some appropriate ways of doing this. What are you specifically suggesting? |
This is the part that troubles me, as well. Active confrontation frequently leads to active resistance, and further entrenchment. I actually think secularism might be winning the long game, as it becomes more and more socially acceptable for people to openly reject theisms. Social revolutions can occur very quickly, once the levels of acceptance reach a threshold. Look, for example, at the polling data trends over just the past 10-20 years regarding attitudes towards homosexuality. Not every revolution involves brick throwing. |
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 11:34:58 [Permalink]
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| There are so many special priviledges and exemptions given to religious groups, especially Christians in the United States. And this when some in the conservative movements are now preemptively attacking Muslim boogeymen to prevent sharia law from coming to America. I can only conclude that the reason some conservative Christians are afraid of Muslims getting special rights around secular law in American is because they are so used to enjoying their own special rights. It seems that if we simply go about strengthening secular law by getting rid of religious exemptions and making sure the laws we have are both enforceable and actually being enforced, there will be no need to do anything specifically against religious parents who raise their children to believe in fundamentalist dogma. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Falconjudge
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 12:52:33 [Permalink]
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I know how fundamentalists think. They (as usual) think that they are being oppressed. They think that more and more of their kids are "turning from the word".
How funny is it that this mostly happens after the kids leave home? The fundamentalists think it's because "the world corrupts them". In truth, it's that without the constant pressure from clergy and family, they start thinking and doing research.
I understand this list. Every part but the last points apply to me in entirety. I was even raised in the middle of the woods, only leaving to shop or to go to church! My mother still says I'll come back to the faith... I hope I don't.
My theory on her "it's just a faze" idea is this: a lot of kids stop believing when they know more. But when they talk to their family, and things return to normal, they go back to the "comfortable" religion, and forget the flaws. Sound about right? |
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Stop your child from becoming an atheist
