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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 10/18/2011 : 11:06:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Mab:
I would love to examine your source for this number, because it differs from mine. My source, Dr. Barry Starr of Stanford University says ~1 million years ago. |
I see no problem with his diagram. |
It's very crude, and as such not very useful for an examination of the speciation events which led to us, chimps, and gorillas. But it's useful for an overview of the general linage from proto-primate mammal.
| One million years is far too soon. The split is considered to be somewhere between 5.5 and 7 million years. |
I was referring to the chromosome fusion event, not the chimp/human split.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2011 : 11:16:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Mab:
It's like having 5 nuts and 5 bolts. 10 objects. Then you screw one nut onto one bolt. You still have 5 nuts and 5 bolts, but only 9 objects because you regard the fused nut-and-bolt as one object. |
Great! I wish I had thought of that as a metaphor for what happened!
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Please make use of it whenever appropriate, with my blessing!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2011 : 11:19:32 [Permalink]
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Notice how careful justincase is, to not touch the subject of differing chromosome-counts within a species, such as mice or horse.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2011 : 11:37:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Notice how careful justincase is, to not touch the subject of differing chromosome-counts within a species, such as mice or horse.
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Right. He tends to either repeat those things he has been corrected on, and ignores the refutation. He rarely repondes to the actual objections. I guess it's not convenient for him to do that. Or he's not actually reading our posts.
He says he's not a troll and tries to move the conversation forward, even as he circles back and repeats what has already been refuted. Just like a creationist does. I do believe at this point that he's coming up with his arguments by culling through creationist materials.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2011 : 13:03:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
I would expect those ancestral primates to still exist... |
You know VERY little, so what YOU would expect is irrelevant.
| That adds up to 40 million years of ancestral primates roaming around and no fossil or evidence to fill those gaps. |
How may fossils do you think should exist given evolution? Come on, you seem to have expectations, so tell us.
It is like a Carl Sagan documentary. Every terrestrial event was a few million, billion light years away. For a guy who only lived for 62 years somehow could fathom such large galactic years.
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Does this make any sense to anyone? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2011 : 14:01:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
Originally posted by justintime
It is like a Carl Sagan documentary. Every terrestrial event was a few million, billion light years away. For a guy who only lived for 62 years somehow could fathom such large galactic years.
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Does this make any sense to anyone?
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Not to me, and I take pride in my English literacy. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2011 : 19:03:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
I would expect those ancestral primates to still exist or have plenty of evidence they existed. |
That's because you're ignorant of the science, and so expect what you shouldn't expect.| Look at the phylogeny of Primates. There are gaps in the millions of years between tarsiers and new world monkeys abut 15 million years, between gibbons and orangutans about 20 million years, and between orangutans and gorillas, chimpanzees, humans another 5 million years. That adds up to 40 million years of ancestral primates roaming around and no fossil or evidence to fill those gaps. |
How do you think those gaps were found in the first place?
justintime, what evidence would you require to accept common descent? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2011 : 06:56:59 [Permalink]
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Check the phylogeny of primates I posted. Those time frames are of prosimians, monkeys, gibbons, gorillas, orangutans. Not a single ancestral primate. Where is the common ancestor from which branched humans and chimpanzees. All it tells us is they found monkeys, apes, prosimians and early humans.
There is a new common descent theory. "Apes and monkeys descended from Humans and not the other way round."
Looking at the phylogeny primate chart which shows from the ancestral primate all other primates branched (prosimian, monkeys, apes) and culminated at the entry of early humans. Suggest those ancestral primates were closer to human form and not monkey/ape like. So the branching from this early human like ancestral primate is what apes, monkeys, prosimians descended from.
This is evolutionist heresy. But there are quite a few scientist expressing this view(Apes and Monkeys descended from Humans and not the other way round). More research is needed here.
But there is an existing theory for monkey believers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz52ivJgVx8
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2011 : 07:13:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
Check the phylogeny of primates I posted. Those time frames are of prosimians, monkeys, gibbons, gorillas, orangutans. Not a single ancestral primate. Where is the common ancestor from which branched humans and chimpanzees. All it tells us is they found monkeys, apes, prosimians and early humans. |
The chart says no such thing.| Looking at the phylogeny primate chart which shows from the ancestral primate all other primates branched (prosimian, monkeys, apes) and culminated at the entry of early humans. Suggest those ancestral primates were closer to human form and not monkey/ape like. So the branching from this early human like ancestral primate is what apes, monkeys, prosimians descended from. |
That's some weapons-grade stupidity, right there. The chart is an illustration, and not a reconstruction. Which way the branches go is a matter of convenience or convention, and not indicative of who's closer to whom in ancestry. Relationships are indicated by where the branches are, not which way they point. And so the chart indicates that modern lemurs and tarsiers are most closely related to the last common ancestor of all primates.| This is evolutionist heresy. |
No, evolutionary biology is not a religion.| But there are quite a few scientist expressing this view(Apes and Monkeys descended from Humans and not the other way round). |
Name one such scientist.| More research is needed here. |
Yes, but not for the reasons you think. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2011 : 09:35:58 [Permalink]
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justintime:
But there are quite a few scientist expressing this view(Apes and Monkeys descended from Humans and not the other way round). |
I'm going to ignore the rest of your last post, justintime, because it's crap. But the above is a claim. I googled the above idea using many search terms and came up empty. If there were "quite a few scientists expressing this view..." they sure are keeping quiete about it. I did come up with some blog headlines about Ardi that feature things that Owen Lovejoy and Tim White have said, but the headlines do not reflect what Lovejoy and White are actually saying. In fact, they aren't even close.
So who are these "quite a few scientists?" As Dave asked. Name one. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2011 : 10:13:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
But there are quite a few scientist expressing this view(Apes and Monkeys descended from Humans and not the other way round). |
Would that be the same scientists expressing the view that Uri Geller is the real deal and that aliens from another dimension built the pyramids? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2011 : 10:17:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
Originally posted by justintime
But there are quite a few scientist expressing this view(Apes and Monkeys descended from Humans and not the other way round). |
Would that be the same scientists expressing the view that Uri Geller is the real deal and that aliens from another dimension built the pyramids?
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Bada-bing!
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2011 : 12:12:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
justintime:
But there are quite a few scientist expressing this view(Apes and Monkeys descended from Humans and not the other way round). |
I'm going to ignore the rest of your last post, justintime, because it's crap. But the above is a claim. I googled the above idea using many search terms and came up empty. If there were "quite a few scientists expressing this view..." they sure are keeping quiete about it. I did come up with some blog headlines about Ardi that feature things that Owen Lovejoy and Tim White have said, but the headlines do not reflect what Lovejoy and White are actually saying. In fact, they aren't even close.
So who are these "quite a few scientists?" As Dave asked. Name one.
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http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/10/01/Study-Man-did-not-evolve-from-apes/UPI-40881254412291/
Sorry I missed a more detailed explanation which is covered in the link below.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5949/74 |
| Edited by - justintime on 10/19/2011 12:23:01 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2011 : 12:29:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
Originally posted by Kil
justintime:
But there are quite a few scientist expressing this view(Apes and Monkeys descended from Humans and not the other way round). |
I'm going to ignore the rest of your last post, justintime, because it's crap. But the above is a claim. I googled the above idea using many search terms and came up empty. If there were "quite a few scientists expressing this view..." they sure are keeping quiete about it. I did come up with some blog headlines about Ardi that feature things that Owen Lovejoy and Tim White have said, but the headlines do not reflect what Lovejoy and White are actually saying. In fact, they aren't even close.
So who are these "quite a few scientists?" As Dave asked. Name one.
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http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/10/01/Study-Man-did-not-evolve-from-apes/UPI-40881254412291/
Sorry I missed a more detailed explanation which is covered in the link below.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/326/5949/74
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I did mention that the headlines and what Lovejoy was saying has been misinterpreted. Maybe it's because the writers don't get what he's saying. What do you think this means, justintime?
"People often think we evolved from apes, but no, apes in many ways evolved from us," Lovejoy said. "It has been a popular idea to think humans are modified chimpanzees. From studying Ardipithecus ramidus, or 'Ardi' (a partial female skeleton) we learn that we cannot understand or model human evolution from chimps and gorillas."
Ardi is "not a chimp," paleoanthropologist Tim White of the University of California-Berkeley, told the San Jose Mercury News. "It shows us what we used to be. It bridges a gap." |
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2011 : 12:45:44 [Permalink]
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Sorry again Kil, there is a fully video on the discovery and its implications. The main position that we to consider is Ardi(4 million years) was pidedal. So theories of evolution which links human evolution to ape/monkey like ancestors which used their arms and knuckles to essentially move on all four limbs is no longer valid.
There are other aspects like the dental structure and behaviours which was previously used to show a migration path from ape like beginnings. Here again Ardi challenges all those earlier explanations.
We are not going to see a huge rush to accept the new apes descended from humans. But I am not here to convince the world. |
| Edited by - justintime on 10/19/2011 12:47:03 |
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Evolution Questions
