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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 18:01:39 [Permalink]
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| Kil, I dunno, I think he might actually be an idiot. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 10/12/2011 18:02:34 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 10/12/2011 : 18:31:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Here's the about the author page. This seems to be her blog:
Jenny Kolber |
That page threw a threat detection with my anti-virus. I'm disabling the link in this reply and in your post, Kil. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 18:43:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
Here's the about the author page. This seems to be her blog:
Jenny Kolber |
That page threw a threat detection with my anti-virus. I'm disabling the link in this reply and in your post, Kil.
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Hmmm... Doesn't really matter. The page only has that photo I posted and her name. Nothing else that suggests she is qualified to do anything but blog. And I mean nothing at all. It's practically a blank page, with the photo.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2011 : 19:26:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Hmmm... Doesn't really matter. The page only has that photo I posted and her name. Nothing else that suggests she is qualified to do anything but blog. And I mean nothing at all. It's practically a blank page, with the photo. |
Probably a dummy "blog" then used only to spread the virus. I've seen that spock girl come up a lot in Google image searches, which can lead people there that way.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/12/2011 19:27:10 |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2011 : 07:14:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by justintime
There is consistency in my modern theory. I am rather happy you guys are showing such resistance because I am only now discovering there are so many links to support my application of critical thinking on the subject of diversity, race, different ancestors, parallel evolution. Was that putting the cart before the horse as Kil put it? But that is how scientific methodology works. Hypotheses, theory, then verification. Or as Steve Jobs said you connect the dots looking back..... |
Scientific theories address apt criticisms and either get retracted or modified as a result. You have yet to address the chromosomal fusion evidence. Do you think ignoring it will make it go away?
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I am not sure why the chromosomal fusion in humans is problematic. The same chromosomes are found in chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans but as separate pairs. All this establishes is our common ancestor with apes which is not what is an issue here.
The question was which apes are whose ancestors when evidence points to racial differences link: http://www.articlesafari.com/2010/12/different-races/
And parallel evolution link: http://www.articlesafari.com/2010/09/critique-of-the-african-origin-theory/
Even the Bible recognizes man as a unique creation/creature. He was created in the image of god.
The fact there are such chromosomal differences between man and apes gives the creationist the scientific credibility they often lack. So we are different from monkeys after all.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2011 : 07:28:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
I am not sure why the chromosomal fusion in humans is problematic. |
Yes, you are ignorant of the issues involved, yet you continue on as if you know what you're talking about.The same chromosomes are found in chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans but as separate pairs. All this establishes is our common ancestor with apes which is not what is an issue here.
The question was which apes are whose ancestors when evidence points to racial differences |
If more than one type of ape is ancestral to the different human races, then the exact same chromosomal fusion had to have occurred multiple times.
If orangs are ancestral to Asians, and bonobos to white folk, then the "missing links" for both "races" needed to have the same chromosomal fusion happen independently on the way to humans. Why?| Even the Bible recognizes man as a unique creation/creature. He was created in the image of god. |
The idea that these statements would somehow support your case is ludicrous.| The fact there are such chromosomal differences between man and apes gives the creationist the scientific credibility they often lack. |
You're seriously trying to claim that modern genetics supports creationism? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2011 : 07:43:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by justintime
Originally posted by Kil
Why do we keep responding to justintime? He knows we will. We are such suckers for trolls... I know that I'm guilty of that too. But really. Does anyone have any real doubt about what he's doing?
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That is so unfair. A troll by definition is a disruptive blogger. I have maintained contunity. I am a contributor and advancer of every topic I engage in. The guilt lies in the inability of the master baiters to control their excitement every time I shed a few words of wisdom.
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I'm actually giving you the benefit of the doubt. You know that going back to that stupid racist site is not going to further your case. It doesn't advance an argument to go around in circles. But you know that it will get an argument, or at the very least, get me to point out how ridiculous your source is. I have to think you know that because the alternative is that you're an idiot.
You have, in every thread you have engaged, taken a position that you know will get most skeptics going. And your links tell me that you are sitting there laughing. If you want to fuck with us, go ahead I guess. And yeah. Part of the blame does lie with those of us who are willing to engage... On that I agree. I guess it's just a stupid game.
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Thank you Kil for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I am of scientific bent and was very actively engaged on Dawkin's forum discussion before they locked down on the open forums.
But being among skeptics is a new experience. I won't go too hard on those who cannot resist tempering the consistency of my views and theories. I admitted earlier I am not with charm.
It is not a stupid game and I should hope those who post here are as sincere. Or should I be more skeptical, skeptical of friends on this network. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2011 : 10:16:58 [Permalink]
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The author is misrepresenting the study. The title of her article is: Studies contradict view that race doesn’t exist
That's not what the study says at all. What the study says is that people who identify on questionares about what race/ethnicity they are, are often correct in the sense that the self identification is helpful in creating a shortcut to identifying risk factors among ethnic groups that are already well known. That the participants self identify as a particular race does not mean that different races exist.
This work could influence how medical research is carried out. Often researchers ask study participants to identify their race and ethnicity at the beginning of a clinical trial. The researchers can then follow people of different racial/ethnic groups to see which group is more likely to get a particular disease or respond well to a new treatment. This information can help future doctors know which patients may need additional disease screening or should receive one treatment over another.
But recently some researchers have moved to examining genetic differences between participants rather than relying on race and ethnicity. Their reasoning is that genetic differences may be a more precise tool for tracking groups of patients. Risch points out that this genetic analysis is costly. If people fall into the same groups using self-identified race as using genetics, then that could bring down the expanding cost of medical research. |
Note that for the purpose of the study, no distinction is made between racial and ethnic groups because none exist. Racial groups are self identified only. For example, when asked on a medical form what race I am I check caucasian. (The question is only relevant in a medical evaluation.) I am also an Ashkenazi Jew by heritage. I am therefor more susceptible to Tay-Sachs disease, even though I checked "caucasian."
There is no question that there are allele frequencies and various phenotypes that exist in different populations of humans. That does not mean that they are different races. It does mean that there are some genetic differences in populations based on a variety of reasons.
Author (and apparent racist), Jenny Kolber says herself:
However, some other scientists reacted without surprise to the new findings.
“As an ordinary citizen educated in biology, it is self-evident that there are genetic differences between people who have been geographically segregated into mating populations, just as there are genetic differences for all species and subspecies,” wrote Michael Wigler, a professor at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in Cold Spring Harbor, New York, in an email. |
Well no duh!
Self identifying as a particular race does not mean that races exist. That's a ridiculous conclusion that the study isn't making. It only means that the social construct that races exist are pervasive enough to be helpful in identifying risk factors for certain heritable diseases within groups that tend to be somewhat homogenous.
To put this another way, race only exists as a tool for medical purposes and not as a valid description of actual species diversity. It's just that most people don't self identify as a phenotype. Jenny Kolber is therefor a liar when she says "Studies contradict view that race doesn’t exist." Self identification is not scientific support for race.
Or to put it yet another way, the popular idea of "race" is not up for election. It's a scientific question and it really doesn't matter how people self identify as a particular race.
I'll go one step farther. The actual authors of the study would laugh in the face of anyone who suggested that their study supports the idea that humans evolved from different primate ancestors that gave rise to different races. They would laugh while calling 911 because anyone making such a suggestion is probably in need of a complete psychiatric evaluation.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2011 : 10:30:52 [Permalink]
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| Really well put, Kil. Sadly, I fear it will fall on deaf ears. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2011 : 11:54:46 [Permalink]
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justintime quoting the bible seems to me to indicate troll-like behavior.
By the way, genetic studies have shown there is more genetic diversity among Africans than people who live in other areas of the world. Which is another piece of evidence that humans migrated from one area of the world and not from different areas of the world |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2011 : 11:59:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by alienist
By the way, genetic studies have shown there is more genetic diversity among Africans than people who live in other areas of the world. Which is another piece of evidence that humans migrated from one area of the world and not from different areas of the world |
I remember something from a long time ago (pre-Internet for me) that if you compare two randomly selected white men's DNA, you'll see more differences between them than if you compared the average white man's genome to the average African man's genome. In other words, that there's more genetic diversity within a "race" than between them. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2011 : 12:00:49 [Permalink]
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| Yes, I do remember something like that. I will have to look it up |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2011 : 12:09:24 [Permalink]
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alienist wrote: | By the way, genetic studies have shown there is more genetic diversity among Africans than people who live in other areas of the world. Which is another piece of evidence that humans migrated from one area of the world and not from different areas of the world |
Yes. I brought that up and it was mentioned in one of the films Kil posted, but it bears repeating since justintime has ignored it.
Dave wrote: | I remember something from a long time ago (pre-Internet for me) that if you compare two randomly selected white men's DNA, you'll see more differences between them than if you compared the average white man's genome to the average African man's genome. In other words, that there's more genetic diversity within a "race" than between them. |
I remember reading that same thing in a paper in college while taking a physical anthropology class. I tried to find it mentioned in a reputable article online but so far have failed. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2011 : 12:44:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by justintime
I am not sure why the chromosomal fusion in humans is problematic. |
Yes, you are ignorant of the issues involved, yet you continue on as if you know what you're talking about.The same chromosomes are found in chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans but as separate pairs. All this establishes is our common ancestor with apes which is not what is an issue here.
The question was which apes are whose ancestors when evidence points to racial differences |
If more than one type of ape is ancestral to the different human races, then the exact same chromosomal fusion had to have occurred multiple times.
If orangs are ancestral to Asians, and bonobos to white folk, then the "missing links" for both "races" needed to have the same chromosomal fusion happen independently on the way to humans. Why?| Even the Bible recognizes man as a unique creation/creature. He was created in the image of god. |
The idea that these statements would somehow support your case is ludicrous.| The fact there are such chromosomal differences between man and apes gives the creationist the scientific credibility they often lack. |
You're seriously trying to claim that modern genetics supports creationism?
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The apes have 24 pairs and humans have 23 pair of chromosomes. I don't know where you got the idea of fusion happened on its way to humans or a missing link that passed on these fused chromosomes. It is what differentiates human chromosome count with the apes our recent cousins.
In general humans are almost 98% DNA matched with monkeys. It is the remaining 2% that separates humans from apes and monkeys.
The passing of 23 pairs of chromosomes is from human parents to offspring. Not apes to humans.
The Bible maintains creatures were created in its original form. A dog, cat monkeys, human are as they were created. Each creatures unique and different. It is science that is trying to show an evolutionary connection between the first amoeba and all other living creatures.
But the problem with linking humans to apes shows up in chromosome counts not to mention intelligence etc. etc. So it is science that is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
My theory actually attempts to show the diversity in the races, and a possible explanation why we did not all come from an Evolutionary EVE.
This concept is so original I was a little disappointed to find there are other critics of the Out of Africa theory and Akhil Bakshi articulated it in the most uncompromising way. |
| Edited by - justintime on 10/13/2011 12:47:20 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2011 : 12:51:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
The apes have 24 pairs and humans have 23 pair of chromosomes. I don't know where you got the idea of fusion happened on its way to humans or a missing link that passed on these fused chromosomes.
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The passing of 23 pairs of chromosomes is from human parents to offspring. Not apes to humans. |
So you think humans didn't evolve from apes at all, now?The Bible maintains creatures were created in its original form. A dog, cat monkeys, human are as they were created. Each creatures unique and different. It is science that is trying to show an evolutionary connection between the first amoeba and all other living creatures.
But the problem with linking humans to apes shows up in chromosome counts not to mention intelligence etc. etc. So it is science that is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. |
So you're a creationist, then.| My theory actually attempts to show the diversity in the races, and a possible explanation why we did not all come from an Evolutionary EVE. |
Your theory does not account for the difference in chromosome count.| This concept is so original... |
No, it's apparently 2,000 year-old nonsense. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Evolution Questions
