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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2011 : 11:14:37 [Permalink]
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justintime:
All my links pointed to Orangutans being closer to humans than chimpanzees. |
Nonsense. The only links that makes that assertion comes from a racist site and the writers are neither experts nor were they being truthful. The stuff from ScienceDaily came to no such conclusion. And since we keep going over this, and you haven't responded to any of my debunking of what YOU thought they meant, I'm calling you a liar.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 10/16/2011 : 11:18:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
Using chromosome count was raised initially by you DaveW. |
No, I was talking about a chromosomal fusion.| All my links pointed to Orangutans being closer to humans than chimpanzees. |
That's simply false, as has been pointed out already.| Having raised the issue of chromosomes by you and Dr Mabuse. How can you say just counting them doesn't answer it. What is it here? |
Well, you quoted "it," so I would have thought you had read "it." After humans split from the ancestral line that led to all the other extant apes, the line that led to us underwent a chromosomal fusion, leaving us with 23 pairs instead of 24. For more than one ape lineage to have evolved into humans (your idea), that same fusion must have happened multiple times.| I showed both of you a list of organism with the same and different chromosome counts. So where is you comparison apes versus humans 24/23 pair chromosome and how does it apply to linking common ancestry based on chromosomes. That was your choice to use chromosomes to show some ancestral connection between humans and apes. |
And I have already. Twice now. You haven't responded to it, instead putting up lists of chromosome counts and other irrelevancies. |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2011 : 14:16:30 [Permalink]
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What is obvious here is none of my post pressed on chromosomes as being problematic. If you only wanted to highlight the chromosome fusion then it had to taken in context of 24/23. Which is a chromosome count. And you insisted I address this difference.
I tried to explain chromosome fusion in response to you question. That it was unique to humans 23 pairs versus 24 for apes.
I still don't get this multiple fusion you talk about. I already explained that was unique to humans. Apes do not demonstrate any fused chromosomes.
Maybe we are looking at the same issue but from different positions. Humans do not have the same chromosome count as apes. I suggested this makes them different from apes and supports the long established view by creationist Humans are different from apes.
If you are basing your argument that chromosome counts is proof humans are closer to apes then you have to explain why potato's have the same chromosome count as apes which would makes apes close to potatoes. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2011 : 15:40:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
I still don't get this multiple fusion you talk about. |
No shit.
You've been suggesting (by citing the Indian racist) that Asians are descended from orangutans, blacks from gorillas and white folk from chimps. If that were true, then the same chromosomal fusion had to occur three times.
If all humans are descended from a single ape ancestor, then the fusion only needed to have happened once.
You haven't explained how the exact same fusion could have happened three (or more!) times in a scant several million years. |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2011 : 15:51:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by justintime
I still don't get this multiple fusion you talk about. |
No shit.
You've been suggesting (by citing the Indian racist) that Asians are descended from orangutans, blacks from gorillas and white folk from chimps. If that were true, then the same chromosomal fusion had to occur three times.
If all humans are descended from a single ape ancestor, then the fusion only needed to have happened once.
You haven't explained how the exact same fusion could have happened three (or more!) times in a scant several million years.
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None of the links I provided even mention fused chromosomes as relevant to any prognosis. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2011 : 16:39:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
None of the links I provided even mention fused chromosomes as relevant to any prognosis. |
That's the problem: any theory that is offered an alternative to our current scientific understanding of human evolution has to address the fused chromosomes. Any theory that doesn't address it is a failure. |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2011 : 06:05:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by justintime
None of the links I provided even mention fused chromosomes as relevant to any prognosis. |
That's the problem: any theory that is offered an alternative to our current scientific understanding of human evolution has to address the fused chromosomes. Any theory that doesn't address it is a failure.
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Darwin did not address fused chromosomes in his Natural selection theory and should as you have stated be discarded as a failure. In fact Darwin knew that the lack of an explanation for heredity left a big gap in his theory of natural selection. Yet evolutionist accepted a monkey theory (Darwinism) which did not address the very proof you are demanding.
And now having found only humans have a pair of fused chromosomes unlike any other primate before or after them. Evolutionist are puzzled to explain how it got there. If it did not come from our common ancestors since none have been found with 23 pairs. Then the common ancestor theory is also suspect.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2011 : 06:51:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
Darwin did not address fused chromosomes in his Natural selection theory and should as you have stated be discarded as a failure. |
Darwin didn't know about genes at all. I said "our current scientific understanding of human evolution" because we've learned stuff in the last 150 years.| In fact Darwin knew that the lack of an explanation for heredity left a big gap in his theory of natural selection. |
A gap that we've filled in quite well since then.| Yet evolutionist accepted a monkey theory (Darwinism) which did not address the very proof you are demanding. |
You're woefully ignorant of the history of the theory.| And now having found only humans have a pair of fused chromosomes unlike any other primate before or after them. Evolutionist are puzzled to explain how it got there. |
No, they are not. The fact that it's called a "chromosomal fusion" is the explanation.| If it did not come from our common ancestors since none have been found with 23 pairs. |
No, it occurred in the line that led to us. Had it occurred in an ancestor we have in common with some other creature, we would have found it in them, too.| Then the common ancestor theory is also suspect. |
Not even close.
I note that you haven't even tried to offer an explanation for the fusion based on your alleged theory. |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2011 : 07:07:27 [Permalink]
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| You have not even been able to link the significance of the fused chromosomes to common ancestors and claim it came from a line which led to us. But that is the crux of the problem. No line has been found because none exist. Another search for missing links I presume. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2011 : 08:33:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
You have not even been able to link the significance of the fused chromosomes to common ancestors and claim it came from a line which led to us. But that is the crux of the problem. No line has been found because none exist. Another search for missing links I presume. |
What evidence would you require, justintime, to accept the modern theory of common descent? |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2011 : 09:20:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
You have not even been able to link the significance of the fused chromosomes to common ancestors and claim it came from a line which led to us. But that is the crux of the problem. No line has been found because none exist. Another search for missing links I presume.
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Chromosome 2 (human)
All members of Hominidae except humans have 24 pairs of chromosomes. Humans have only 23 pairs of chromosomes. Human chromosome 2 is widely accepted to be a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.[3][4]
Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere |
The evidence for this includes:
The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.
The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere.
The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the middle.
Chromosome 2 presents very strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes. According to researcher J. W. IJdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2."
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In other words, there is no problem here. Mutations happen and it's clear because of where it is and how it lines up with the ape chromosomes in the same position, that it just can't be used as evidence against humans having a common ancestor with apes. A missing link is not required here. Again it should be pointed out that some mice of the same species have different numbers of chromosomes. This is interesting but in terms of human evolution, it's a non issue.
Well... Unless you claim that different apes are ancestor to different human races which would mean that the same mutation in exactly the same spot happened three or four times independently of each other. I don't know the odds against something like that happening, but it's my guess that they are so astronomical that it's ludicrous to even consider it. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2011 : 09:54:49 [Permalink]
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So what Kil is saying is humans are apes with chromosomes that mutated. The common ancestors of apes and humans did not have this mutation or they would have passed it down to both apes and humans.
When you take chromosome counts apes and potatoes have the same 48 chromosome count. It should be more plausible apes and potatoes share a common ancestor. And yet we do not see evolutionist making that association.
But humans have 46 and apes have 48. So they could not possible have a common ancestor. And here we have both skeptics and evolutionist providing a mutation theory or a missing link theory to explain this anomalie.
What are the standards skeptics use to uphold their beliefs. Evolutionist have explained most changes and differences away as mutations or missing gaps or transitions. Are skeptics now endorsing mutant causes for what is otherwise lost in translation?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2011 : 10:31:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
When you take chromosome counts apes and potatoes have the same 48 chromosome count. It should be more plausible apes and potatoes share a common ancestor. And yet we do not see evolutionist making that association. |
Because it's dumb.| But humans have 46 and apes have 48. So they could not possible have a common ancestor. |
That's dumb, too.And here we have both skeptics and evolutionist providing a mutation theory or a missing link theory to explain this anomalie.
What are the standards skeptics use to uphold their beliefs. Evolutionist have explained most changes and differences away as mutations or missing gaps or transitions. |
Are you claiming that mutations do not occur?
What evidence would you require, justintime, to accept the modern theory of common descent? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2011 : 11:25:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
So what Kil is saying is humans are apes with chromosomes that mutated. The common ancestors of apes and humans did not have this mutation or they would have passed it down to both apes and humans. |
Correct. And I'm not saying it. That's what evolutionary scientists and molecular biologists are saying. You know... The experts.
justintime:
When you take chromosome counts apes and potatoes have the same 48 chromosome count. It should be more plausible apes and potatoes share a common ancestor. And yet we do not see evolutionist making that association.
But humans have 46 and apes have 48. So they could not possible have a common ancestor. And here we have both skeptics and evolutionist providing a mutation theory or a missing link theory to explain this anomalie. |
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2011 : 13:53:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
You have not even been able to link the significance of the fused chromosomes to common ancestors |
I haven't linked to it, because anyone with high-school biology should be able to grasp the significance for it. And I never said that the cromosome fusion happend in a common ancestor to us and chimps. That's something you've dreamt up.
and claim it came from a line which led to us. But that is the crux of the problem. |
Yes. Some time after the speciation event that separated us from chimps, the human ancestral line had a chromosome fusion.
| No line has been found because none exist. |
We are part of that line. Duh!  |
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