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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 12/14/2011 : 09:08:16
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I found this latest post from PZ interesting:
I think I’d call this the Atheist Delusion. Many of us find it really hard to believe that Christians actually believe that nonsense about Jesus rising from the dead and insisting that faith is required to pass through the gates of a magical place in the sky after we’re dead; we struggle to find a rational reason why friends and family are clinging to these bizarre ideas, and we say to ourselves, “oh, all of her friends are at church” or “he uses church to make business contacts” or “it’s a comforting tradition from their childhood”, but no, it’s deeper than that: we have to take them at their word, and recognize that most people who go to church actually do so because they genuinely believe in all that stuff laid out in the Nicene Creed.
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PZ pokes a bit of fun at Julian Baggini (a critic of New Atheism) for his discovery that believers actually believe. And I think PZ has a good point and about half of the story right. However, what he misses is this:
It isn't only that we atheists find it hard to believe that religious folks literally believe in things like Jesus rising from the dead, etc. No, there is a much more persuasive reason to suspect that religious folks don't actually believe the crap they claim to believe. That is, the vast majority of religious folks (at least in the developed world) live the vast majority of their lives as if they didn't literally believe in their claimed faiths. For example, a minority of Christians attend weekly church services. And while that might not be as big a deal for Protestants, it is a serious sin according to Catholic dogma. And that's God only asking for an hour out of a whole week! Another example from the Catholics; it is also pretty damn clear that most Catholics use and/or are just fine with other people using modern contraceptives even though according with Church doctrine that is a serious no-no.
But let's move on from Catholics. Protestants. What a joke. Most of them don't even know what the tenets of their own sect are, much less strictly abide by them! Christians most typically pick and choose (and sometimes just make up) their faith as they go along according to what suits their secular, materialistic lifestyle.
So while it was a mistake for Julian Baggini to formally assume believers didn't literally believe in their religions, he was on to something. The real truth is that most believers both believe and don't believe in their religions. That is, they engage in compartmentalized thinking so that they can have their cake and eat it too.
If I'm right, then the real question non-believers need to ask about believers is this: Is this kind of compartmentalized thinking harmless or dangerous? I tend to think most of it is harmless, and in some cases might even be beneficial to certain individuals. Which is why I'm not a "New Atheist" (although I admire a lot of what the likes of PZ and Dawkins do, and I do regard myself and them to be on the "same side" in the war against the religious right.)
Thoughts?
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Edited by - marfknox on 12/14/2011 09:11:18
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 10:32:07 [Permalink]
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These sorts of religions make a primary virtue out of gullibility, which harms society. The beneficial aspects of religion can all be found in other, non-religious activities.
The only people I'd like to see stay religious are those who really, honestly, "literally" believe that without the threat of Hell, there's no reason to not murder, rape or steal. If Christianity is keeping these psychopaths in check, then they need to keep on having faith. At least until they get treatment. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 10:50:40 [Permalink]
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| I was deluded like. In my early 20's, I finally came to realized that people actually took wacky fictional ridiculousness seriously. Scary stuff when such folks have power. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 11:05:53 [Permalink]
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Marf:
Is this kind of compartmentalized thinking harmless or dangerous? |
I think many of the faithful don't actually give much thought to why they believe. But many do like the sense of community that even occasional churchy stuff (as Filthy would say) brings to them. I'm mostly not kidding when I suggest that bake sales and stuff like that are mostly healthy fun. But then, I don't live in the bible belt where religion is taken much more seriously by everyone, it seems. Atheist and believer. Many of the grievances that atheists have against the faithful are just not a big a deal here. An atheist could run and win office here in Santa Monica, and probably win statewide elections. There isn't the animosity here that other parts of the country experience toward non-believers.
Of course, on a rational level, and as a skeptic, I still must ask why anyone would believe in stuff that is simply unbelievable. And some would argue that any amount of faith leaves the door open to more extreme expressions of faith, like fundamentalism. There are, studies that have been done that seem to correlate religion, or strongly held religious faith with how happy the population is. If the people are generally stressed out with their living conditions, they trend to being happier if they are religious. So to my way of thinking, if we are going to do battle with religion, our best coarse of action is to improve our standard of living, and reduce the everyday stress of not knowing if a single unfortunate event like losing a job will lead to an downward spiral (which might feel) impossible to recover from. Insecurity seems to be a driving factor for keeping religion alive and kicking.
My anti-theist sentiment is not very strong mainly because I don't think we can get rid of religion by pointing out to the faithful that they are being irrational in that area of their lives. Those theists who do compartmentalize, because they are mostly secular in their political beliefs, and have accepted of science, don't really bother me at all. I regard them as alies in the battle for keeping this a secular nation which to me is the number one priority. I can't really say if it's psychologically harmful to them to operate that way, but I can say that they are operating within the norm, and are therefor not considered crazy in any clinical sense. Compartmentalizing does not usually render them dangerous to themselves or others, which would be considered outside of the norm.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 11:16:15 [Permalink]
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Well of course we have some Christians who care. But in other areas of the country there would never be such a lottery with atheists included. Can you imagine opening up what will be displayed by a city lottery to atheists in the bible belt?
Edited to add:
In fact, I think more focus should have placed on our local government's willingness to attempt a fair way of deciding on who gets the displays rather than the Christian reaction to who won. At least, here in Santa Monica, atheists are acknowledged as a voice in our community, and not discriminated against in any way. We should be considered a model city along those lines. The focus on Christian objections misses the point, I think. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 11:28:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Well of course we have some Christians who care. But in other areas of the country there would never be such a lottery with atheists included. Can you imagine opening up what will be displayed by a city lottery to atheists in the bible belt? |
Leesburg, Virginia is a lot closer to the Bible Belt than Santa Monica. Atheists there nabbed 5 out of 10 spots. And that wasn't even a lottery. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 11:39:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
Well of course we have some Christians who care. But in other areas of the country there would never be such a lottery with atheists included. Can you imagine opening up what will be displayed by a city lottery to atheists in the bible belt? |
Leesburg, Virginia is a lot closer to the Bible Belt than Santa Monica. Atheists there nabbed 5 out of 10 spots. And that wasn't even a lottery.
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Good!
Ed Brayton:
I like that. That’s what an open forum is all about, genuine diversity of opinion where the government is not endorsing any message. |
That should be the main thing. (And the one Myers missed.) And that's what we have here in Santa Monica, too. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 14:27:57 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: | These sorts of religions make a primary virtue out of gullibility, which harms society. The beneficial aspects of religion can all be found in other, non-religious activities. |
Not sure what I feel about this argument. I just don't see any persuasive evidence that merely having beliefs in unlikely/irrational things about the hereafter and ultimate meaning of life bleeds into being gullible about things that actually matter. The dangers of religious belief seem to be much more connected to things like grabs for power, identity, authority, etc (in the same way that nationalism and ethnocentricism can be and are abused.) For example, I see lots of power, more poorly-educated, rural Christians in America being easily radicalized by charismatic preachers and other authorities. The masses are easily swayed because their way of life is compromised and they don't understand why and are eager for answers and a way to feel empowered, and the charismatic authorities benefit from the power. The whole opiate of the masses thing Marx referred to. Thing is, the opiate doesn't work on educated people who have sufficient security in their way of life. So in my assessment , the problem isn't religious belief so much as it is unfair distribution of resources and education.
| The only people I'd like to see stay religious are those who really, honestly, "literally" believe that without the threat of Hell, there's no reason to not murder, rape or steal. If Christianity is keeping these psychopaths in check, then they need to keep on having faith. At least until they get treatment. |
I don't think this happens. People who are imbalanced in a way which would compel them to murder, rape, or steal, are never deterred from doing so because of religious beliefs. On the contrary, there are plenty of examples of such disturbed individuals who simply find ways to twist their beliefs into justifying such acts. (Just as kind and stable religious people rationalize-away the horrible stuff in the Bible and Koran.) Prisons are packed full of devout Christians. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 15:27:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Dave wrote: | These sorts of religions make a primary virtue out of gullibility, which harms society. The beneficial aspects of religion can all be found in other, non-religious activities. |
Not sure what I feel about this argument. I just don't see any persuasive evidence that merely having beliefs in unlikely/irrational things about the hereafter and ultimate meaning of life bleeds into being gullible about things that actually matter. |
But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that "merely having beliefs in unlikely irrational things..." is what's bad about religion. I'm saying that religion encourages such beliefs, and in doing so encourages all sorts of other gullibility. I see no natural or church-enforced borderline between gullibility about the numinous and gullibility about the mundane. Especially not when millions of people really believe that it is their duty to donate 10% of their pre-tax income to their church, or else face hellfire after they die. That's millions near or below the poverty line, giving their sorely needed money away (money that "actually matters") based on lies.
Since con-men trying to sell you on their driveway paving scam don't tell you that you have to give them money, they are actually less morally reprehensible than any Christian sect that preaches tithing.| The dangers of religious belief seem to be much more connected to things like grabs for power, identity, authority, etc (in the same way that nationalism and ethnocentricism can be and are abused.) For example, I see lots of power, more poorly-educated, rural Christians in America being easily radicalized by charismatic preachers and other authorities. The masses are easily swayed because their way of life is compromised and they don't understand why and are eager for answers and a way to feel empowered, and the charismatic authorities benefit from the power. The whole opiate of the masses thing Marx referred to. |
Right, and religions encourage this by giving the people easy answers and ways to feel empowered. They're all generally false, but that's all that religions have to offer. People lick it up, though.| Thing is, the opiate doesn't work on educated people who have sufficient security in their way of life. So in my assessment , the problem isn't religious belief so much as it is unfair distribution of resources and education. |
I'll agree that education is a counter to gullibility, yes. That doesn't excuse religions from taking advantage of peoples' current, uneducated gullibility.| The only people I'd like to see stay religious are those who really, honestly, "literally" believe that without the threat of Hell, there's no reason to not murder, rape or steal. If Christianity is keeping these psychopaths in check, then they need to keep on having faith. At least until they get treatment. |
I don't think this happens. |
I've encountered at least three.| People who are imbalanced in a way which would compel them to murder, rape, or steal, are never deterred from doing so because of religious beliefs. |
Nonononono, you've got it backwards. These are people who feel compelled to not murder, rape or steal by Jesus. I never said they feel compelled to do those things. They just say, with absolute seriousness, that without the threat of Hell, they would see no reason to avoid doing them. Their entire morality comes from the Bible, and so they don't see an iota of value intrinsic to any person (or rights) if God is stripped out of the ethical equations. To these people, a God-given soul is the only thing that gives human life value in any way, so if it doesn't exist, there'd be nothing "wrong" about killing random people on the street. These people have zero empathy that isn't mandated by the Bible, and so could be characterized as sociopathic.
That's what they say, and I see no reason to doubt their sincerity.| On the contrary, there are plenty of examples of such disturbed individuals who simply find ways to twist their beliefs into justifying such acts. |
Indeed, but you're talking about a completely different set of people than I am. But really, both of these sets of people illustrate one thing I've been saying for a while, now: that religion is an acceptable facade behind which to hide serious mental problems. Issues which would get the victims the attention they need if they weren't cloaked in the Bible. People who are willing to harm themselves in the name of God (self-flagellation, for example) need treatment, not veneration. Many religions have this exactly backwards, not just Christianity.| Prisons are packed full of devout Christians. |
No more so than in the general population, probably. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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PZ on the "Common Atheist Delusion"
