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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 12/16/2011 : 14:21:02 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Well, I don't know why you'd require an authority for any of this. We have the luxury, as rational beings, of discussing our various definitions of good and evil, and even subjecting them to scientific tests using agreed-upon metrics. We can present arguments and evidence for and against different propositions about which acts are evil or good (or even neutral), and as a society (or even just a neighborhood) decide on standards of behavior, and perhaps even write them into codes of law which are (most importantly) mutable in case we've made a mistake. |
They called this mob rules in the old days. Define luxury, define rational. All in the eye of the beholder. Sorry Dave but it takes more than simple majorities from your neighborhood addition association to establish definitions when all is in the eye of the beholder. You know this.
| Your God gives you none of that, and it results in huge problems. Specifically that your God hasn't told you in detail what is good and what is evil. His plan is opaque, and so you've got an authority to bow down to, but he's left you clueless. This opens the door for self-proclaimed prophets, evangelists and priests to claim that they speak with God's authority when they make their own personal moral pronouncements, and you've got no authority to claim otherwise, because you've given it all up to God. And the Bible is no help, since it was compiled by a bunch of self-proclaimed priests. So unless God instructs you personally in every moral choice you make, Bill, then he's left you without reliable guidance and all your appeals to authority are for naught. |
Well that all depends on if the Bible is the Word of God or not. I say yes while you say no.
| How about this: if you see a man kicking a puppy, what do you do? Maybe God's plan is for the man to kill the puppy because otherwise the puppy would grow up, become rabid and kill the next great messenger of God's Word. Maybe God's plan is for you to stop the man, because the puppy will then grow up to become a loyal and trustworthy protector of the next great messenger of God's Word. You can't say, one way or the other, because you don't know. So do you save the puppy or not? |
So many unknowns here the questions is silly. If the man bigger than me? Is it nighttime in a dark alley or in the middle of the day time? Is my family with me or am on my own? etc... etc... etc...
| No, that what's true when all you've got is an ultimate authority who doesn't offer moral guidance on every single possible topic. If, on the other hand, one has a society of rational beings who can examine propositions for their merit, then not all propositions will be found equal. |
But in the materiastic universe where all is in the beholder we first have to agree on what is the definition of merit and equal and what is not before we begin the debate over what is evil and what is not. Welcome to the world of the never ending merry-go-round in the materialistic universe, Dave.
| Well, I certainly don't know your mother, Bill, so I don't know that I'd call her evil. She did allow you to get sucked up into a stupid death cult, and instilled in you a nearly pathological dependence upon authority, so I might lean towards concluding that she's evil, but I can't be sure yet. |
But you have no authority to even define what is evil with any merit, other than by using the simple majority of your neighborhood association, in the materialistic universe. And I don't give a rip about what your neighborhood association defines as evil and in the materialistic universe my definitions carries as much weight as theirs.
Oh well, time to go home now. Have a nice weekend. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2011 : 14:26:21 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Well, I don't know why you'd require an authority for any of this. We have the luxury, as rational beings, of discussing our various definitions of good and evil, and even subjecting them to scientific tests using agreed-upon metrics. We can present arguments and evidence for and against different propositions about which acts are evil or good (or even neutral), and as a society (or even just a neighborhood) decide on standards of behavior, and perhaps even write them into codes of law which are (most importantly) mutable in case we've made a mistake. |
The vast majority of Americans have voted against all homosexual marriages being legal in their state. So by your very logic we can conclude that homosexual marriage is evil. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2011 : 14:36:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Who could ever challenge his authority? |
(granting for the purpose of this discussion that he exists)
I can! Because, according to his book, he created me in his image.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2011 : 14:46:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Who could ever challenge his authority? |
(granting for the purpose of this discussion that he exists)
I can! Because, according to his book, he created me in his image.
| Well for starters what else do you call the one who can bring into existence that which did not exist before? |
So would you admit that I am God if I raped a woman until she have my baby? Through an act of evil I would have brought into existence that which did not exist before. It would be a child created in my image.
(For clarification, the statements above is a hypothetical situation created for a rethorical point.) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2011 : 15:26:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
They called this mob rules in the old days. |
Debate, discussion and science are "mob rules?"| Define luxury, define rational. All in the eye of the beholder. |
All attempts to dodge away from the central questions relevant to this thread.| Sorry Dave but it takes more than simple majorities from your neighborhood addition association to establish definitions when all is in the eye of the beholder. You know this. |
I didn't say anything about simple majorities, so you're just making shit up again.
But I certainly would accept a simple majority over the childish tyranny of the Christian God.
WTF is a "neighborhood addition association?"| Well that all depends on if the Bible is the Word of God or not. I say yes while you say no. |
Are you able to provide any evidence or argument that it is the word of god? If not, then it can't have any more merit than my opinion, according to your logic. Surely your god is better at being an authority than that, yes?| How about this: if you see a man kicking a puppy, what do you do? Maybe God's plan is for the man to kill the puppy because otherwise the puppy would grow up, become rabid and kill the next great messenger of God's Word. Maybe God's plan is for you to stop the man, because the puppy will then grow up to become a loyal and trustworthy protector of the next great messenger of God's Word. You can't say, one way or the other, because you don't know. So do you save the puppy or not? |
So many unknowns here the questions is silly. If the man bigger than me? Is it nighttime in a dark alley or in the middle of the day time? Is my family with me or am on my own? etc... etc... etc... |
So you would let concerns for your own safety, the time of day, and your family overrule God's Divine Plan if God wanted you to save the puppy?! So your faith is conditional. Interesting to know.| But in the materiastic universe where all is in the beholder we first have to agree on what is the definition of merit and equal and what is not before we begin the debate over what is evil and what is not. |
Indeed! Shouldn't the concepts mean something before we try to use them? Some concepts will be harder to define than others, I'm sure, but that's the wonderful thing about malleable wisdom (as opposed to dogmatic authoritarianism): we can fix problems after we discover them, improve the definitions, and re-run the experiments.| Welcome to the world of the never ending merry-go-round in the materialistic universe, Dave. |
It's still better than a playground bully like your Christian God.| But you have no authority to even define what is evil with any merit... |
You're saying that I have no authority to define my own opinion? Wow, God must spoon-feed you every little like and dislike you have, Bill. How can you stand the voices in your head?| ...other than by using the simple majority of your neighborhood association, in the materialistic universe. |
Still better than bowing down to a book.| And I don't give a rip about what your neighborhood association defines as evil and in the materialistic universe my definitions carries as much weight as theirs. |
Well, that's because the con-men priests tell you that your horrific god has set things up so that looking out only for your own interests is the easiest way to live your life and believe the lies about Heaven at the same time. The Christian motto really ought to be "every man for himself." I'm very happy to not have you as a neighbor, Bill.| The vast majority of Americans have voted against all homosexual marriages being legal in their state. So by your very logic we can conclude that homosexual marriage is evil. |
I said nothing about simple majorities and you know it, Bill, so you're flat-out lying when you claim it's my logic. What does the Bible say about lying? Is your lie here today a part of God's plan? Do you think it's better to lie about me, personally, if it'll turn some anonymous reader away from the evils of materialism? Is one evil deed okay if it's less evil than another evil deed? Please quote chapter and verse for me on the subject of when lying is okay in God's eyes, and when it is forbidden. (And don't give me any of those old Jewish fables, stick with the New Testament.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2011 : 18:06:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by chefcrsh
[quote]Then whence cometh evil? |
Who's definition of evil are you going to be using here? In the materialistic universe that which is evil is simply in the eye of the beholder.
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Do you deny the very fact that the maceration of children, regardless of its immediate cause, is an evil? Can it ever be anything else?
If you believe in an omnipotent deity and you believe the starvation of children is an evil, regardless of the immediate cause of that starvation...Lucy, your deity has some splainin to do. And handwaving of a greater good that can not be seen by mortal men, need not apply. Because, if we can imagine a greater good without the suffering, an omnipotent god should be able to create that good. Placing any limits on your god makes it, ipso facto, not omnipotent.
If you do not believe that the drawn out and blighted death from lack of food and water of children is evil. Or if you believe in a good god that would hear any prayers before eradicating starvation, then you (as well as your god) are morally bankrupt.
evil |#712;#275;v#601;l|
adjective
profoundly immoral and malevolent |
| Edited by - chefcrsh on 12/16/2011 18:12:11 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2011 : 18:17:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
| How about this: if you see a man kicking a puppy, what do you do? Maybe God's plan is for the man to kill the puppy because otherwise the puppy would grow up, become rabid and kill the next great messenger of God's Word. Maybe God's plan is for you to stop the man, because the puppy will then grow up to become a loyal and trustworthy protector of the next great messenger of God's Word. You can't say, one way or the other, because you don't know. So do you save the puppy or not? |
So many unknowns here the questions is silly. If the man bigger than me? Is it nighttime in a dark alley or in the middle of the day time? Is my family with me or am on my own? etc... etc... etc... |
So you would let concerns for your own safety, the time of day, and your family overrule God's Divine Plan if God wanted you to save the puppy?! So your faith is conditional. Interesting to know. |
Actually, forget I said the above. It doesn't matter.
What's important is that you, Bill, answered a question about applying knowledge of God's absolute morality to a moral problem without bothering to mention God at all. So, your checklist for deciding moral questions appears to be as follows:1 - Risk to self.
2 - Risk to self.
3 - Risk to family.
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? - God's Divine Plan. In short, when faced with a real-world problem, God is so inconsequential to you, Bill, that he need not even be mentioned.
Either that, or the whole "So many unknowns" bit was just a dodge to avoid answering that no, you don't have a clue what God would think of any particular moral problem you faced.
That is the lesson to be learned from Ecclesiastes, after all. Why didn't you just point out that the Bible already insists that it cannot possibly be a moral guide because nobody knows God's Plan?
Well... because that would mean that God can have no moral authority here on Earth, even if he exists. That's why. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2011 : 18:42:05 [Permalink]
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Seriously? A load of third-rate apologetic horse shit that even starving African children and football stars could see through if they put their minds to it?
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by chefcrsh |
Well, since I am not God I will not speak for God, but here are some of my thoughts: |
He then goes on to speak for his god (and has the nerve to call it thought)...harumph!
| Is God willing to prevent evil, |
We read that sometimes he is willing and sometimes he is not. It all unfolds according to his purpose.
No, he is able, but sometimes just unwilling.
| Then he is not omnipotent. |
Unwilling does not mean that one is impotent. It just means that one is unwilling. |
No, impotent comes from not able. The question was is your god able or not, if not then not omnipotent.
| Is he able, but not willing? |
He is able but sometimes unwilling. |
Then he is malevolent.
If you were the creator of the universe and it was all unfolding according to your purpose then you could say that with some credibility. But since you are a mortal man what you see you see with a minute and very limited perspective where as God sees all with an eternal perspective. So it is only in the ignorance of your very limited perspective do you even make this claim. I am going to stick with the one who sees with the perspective of all of eternity on this one. |
Then how dare you claim anything in defense of or in relation to your god. If mortal man can not know, and you Bill are a mortal man (QED) so you don't know, then shut up. But if you claim any knowledge of your god then pony up, but with fact not plebeian, dark-age, Sunday-school platitude.
| Is he both able and willing? |
Again, as I said earlier, he is able and sometimes willing. Sometimes he is not willing but being God and the Creator of all that exists he has that prerogative. Who could ever challenge his authority? |
I do, now. And I challenge you too. If god works in mysterious ways (as you said above) how can you claim to know anything about your god?
Evil is the absence of good and as we all know all that it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. |
If you posit (as you have) an omnipotent god then blaming the creation for the poor planning of the creator can not wash out the stain of your god's evil.
| Is he neither able nor willing? |
Again? OK, one more time here. He is able and sometimes he is willing. |
So malevolent to the core then? Worship away, but one can be known by the evil company one worships.
Well for starters what else do you call the one who can bring into existence that which did not exist before? When you or Epicurus can perform that task then you will have my attention. |
I would call it quantum fluctuations, but I do not need to ascribe that a personality it is not necessary to posit a "the one" and doing so solves nothing. Again how do you know anything about this being and its bringing things into?
And you act as if we are already at the end of time here. We clearly read in the scriptures that God will triumph over evil and fully remove it at the coming of His kingdom here on earth. You are trying to name winners and losers while the game is still at halftime. But that is what happens when looking at the universe with your extremity limited perspective vs. an eternal perspective.
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No I act as if I am in my time here, and all I have is reason and evidence. Poorly written, poorly translated cobbled together bronze aged myths do not enlighten anyone. Especially when those books claim to know things that no one can about an invisible and in-attendant personality that were it to be true would be clearly evil. |
| Edited by - chefcrsh on 12/17/2011 20:58:30 |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2011 : 18:50:54 [Permalink]
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| To borrow a phrase from one of Christopher Hitchens friends, and that borrowed from biblical morality Bill seems so enamored of: "The fall of angels, was not the same kettle as the Tumble of Woman and Man. In the case of human persons, the issue had been morality. Of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they shouldst not eat, and ate. Woman first, and at her suggestion man, acquired the verboten ethical standards, tastily apple-flavoured: the serpent brought them a value system. Enabling them, among other things, to judge the Deity Itself, making possible in good time all the awkward inquiries: why evil? Why suffering? Why death? So, out they went. It didn't want Its pretty creatures getting above their station. Whereas the angels' crash was a simple matter of power: a straightforward piece of celestial police work, punishment for rebellion, good and tough "pour encourager les autres". Then how unconfident of Itself this Deity was, Who didn't want Its finest creations to know right from wrong; and Who reigned by terror, insisting upon the unqualified submission of even Its closest associates, packing off all dissidents to Its blazing Siberias, the gulag-infernos of Hell." - Salman Rushdie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2011 : 18:53:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
We clearly read in the scriptures that God will triumph over evil... |
Evil that God created, having created everything.
It's like me writing a book about how I will triumph over the matchstick men I've made. Wooooooooo, color me impressed.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2011 : 19:34:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chefcrshI would call it quantum fluctuations,
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Like Janes Addiction, I was standing in the shower thinking... I admit that quantum fluctuation explains very little, and really gives one nothing to hang one's hat on (except eventually a hat hook). However it does explain a fraction more than the opposing view: "Magic man done it." And in such things that fraction is a world of difference. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2011 : 20:16:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chefcrsh
Like Janes Addiction, I was standing in the shower thinking... I admit that quantum fluctuation explains very little, and really gives one nothing to hang one's hat on (except eventually a hat hook). However it does explain a fraction more than the opposing view: "Magic man done it." And in such things that fraction is a world of difference. |
I prefer "we don't know" to either one, right now. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2011 : 21:14:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by chefcrsh
Like Janes Addiction, I was standing in the shower thinking... I admit that quantum fluctuation explains very little, and really gives one nothing to hang one's hat on (except eventually a hat hook). However it does explain a fraction more than the opposing view: "Magic man done it." And in such things that fraction is a world of difference. |
I prefer "we don't know" to either one, right now.
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Indeed that is also an excellent answer, and one I am as likely to take, especially when I consider the epistemological foundations of my knowledge critically. And it too explains and allows for a great deal more than the presupposition that an invisible eternal all powerful spaghetti monster proofed things into existence. Though the latter does offer a good deal on the existence of midgets... |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2011 : 06:12:29 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Define luxury, define rational. All in the eye of the beholder. |
All attempts to dodge away from the central questions relevant to this thread. |
Oh bull malarkey, Dave. I think that you have veered off on so many different tangents that you have missed or forgot the point. I simply pointed out for the sake of discussion and of interest that any deceleration by man of what is good and evil would have to be considered completely relative while only decelerations by God of what is good and what is evil are, or ever could be, absolute.
You see what man declares as good and evil changes from town to town, county to county, state to state and nation to nation. Not only does it vary from region to region but it also varies over time. What is considered good and evil today here where I live is different than what was considered good and evil 40 years ago and what is considered good and evil in 40 years will not be the same as what is considered good and evil today. In other words man's declaration of what is good and what is evil is a never ending merry-go-round, a revolving door of endless selection and change. In other words, it is relative or in the eye of the beholder.
However, by his own authority as the creator of all that exists God's decelerations of what is evil and what is good would be absolute. How could it not be? Who could ever challenge his authority? You, Dave? Is the created going to give counsel to his Creator? Well of course not and that is because all of God's declarations are absolute. They could be nothing but.
So to sum up my point: All of man's decelerations of good and evil are relative while only God's decelerations of good and evil are, or ever could be, absolute.
Now you can either agree with my point here or you can attempt to convience me that man's decelerations of good and evil are absolute and/or attempte to convince me that God's decelerations of good and evil are relative. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 12/19/2011 06:14:42 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2011 : 08:31:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
So to sum up my point: All of man's decelerations of good and evil are relative while only God's decelerations of good and evil are, or ever could be, absolute. |
And since God only exists inside the heads of men, God's declarations of good and evil are man's declarations of good and evil. There's no difference.
For proof, see the changing, non-absolute morality expressed in the Bible. Compare and contrast the moral declarations of "God" as recorded in Deuteronomy and Exodus with the moral declarations of "Jesus" in the New Testament. And then compare both with the changing, non-absolute morality expressed by almost all mainstream churches today for proof that man ignores the moral edicts of "God" on a regular basis, so that "God" is irrelevant to modern ethics anyway.
Then go read Ecclesiastes for proof that even the Bible says that it's impossible to know God's mind regarding any moral problem, thus proving that whether God's moral declarations are absolute or not is completely irrelevant, we are forced to rely on our own mortal ethics.
Then go back to the puppy-kicking dilemma, and remember that none of the "unknowns" you were concerned about had anything to do with God, and look back at your own lies about what I'd said, thus proving that for all your talk about God's absolute "decelerations," you don't personally pay heed to any of them (you only try to get others to do so), providing further evidence that they are utterly irrelevant even to upstanding Christian gentlemen.
Then go back in this thread and answer the questions put to you. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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The Lord works in mysterious ways....
