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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 08:56:07 [Permalink]
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So maybe this explains why my ideal retirement daydreams always involve living with a big, beautiful Saint Bernard?
On the topic of mistreatment of dogs, they have a tradition of torturing dogs before slaughtering them for meat in Korea (it's a macho thing - they traditionally believed that eating meat from a dog which died in a state of terror would cure impotence) and while I was teaching there a couple of my co-workers witnessed back-alley dog torture going on in Seoul. It is illegal there too, and culturally becoming more and more taboo. But I still had a 5 year old student brag to me about how he and his dad and older brother ate dog, and this was at kind of an elite kindergarten in a modern, wealthy development. It rather weird having that contrasted with the pretty, young Korea women who have teeny tiny, highly-manicured dogs as accessories.
I really wanted to a take a free class hosted by the Wagner Free Institute for Science here in Philly called The Dog and Its DNA Sadly, having a 2 month old, a toddler, and a husband who works full time and is taking a class just didn't accommodate my attendance. :-P
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 01/27/2012 : 09:06:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
So maybe this explains why my ideal retirement daydreams always involve living with a big, beautiful Saint Bernard?
On the topic of mistreatment of dogs, they have a tradition of torturing dogs before slaughtering them for meat in Korea (it's a macho thing - they traditionally believed that eating meat from a dog which died in a state of terror would cure impotence) and while I was teaching there a couple of my co-workers witnessed back-alley dog torture going on in Seoul. It is illegal there too, and culturally becoming more and more taboo. But I still had a 5 year old student brag to me about how he and his dad and older brother ate dog, and this was at kind of an elite kindergarten in a modern, wealthy development. It rather weird having that contrasted with the pretty, young Korea women who have teeny tiny, highly-manicured dogs as accessories.
I really wanted to a take a free class hosted by the Wagner Free Institute for Science here in Philly called The Dog and Its DNA Sadly, having a 2 month old, a toddler, and a husband who works full time and is taking a class just didn't accommodate my attendance. :-P
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Ah, too bad about not being able to take that class! I'd love to lean on a free (?) expert for advice!  |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 12:40:30 [Permalink]
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*ALSO NOT A SCIENTIST
It seems to me that we all tend to over simplify these things too much. The idea that the wolfs became garbage scavengers is possible and probably happened somewhere, however I feel it is most certanly a combination of many factors which led to domestication and may in fact have happened independently many times.
I think it is far more likely that farmers found themselves with a animal pest problem which led them to the same conclusion as their modern counterparts, that maybe killing every wolf you see is a bad idea. Eventually some wolf packs create a more permanent territory around farms with a good supply of game.
These new behaviors would then drive some of the small evolutionary changes in personality which lead these wolves to be non-hostile with the farmers, later these wolves become comfortable enough to scavenge our trash and perhaps some poor sucker looks at some cute little cuddly-wuddly farm-wolf puppies with their big sad eyes and starts it off.
Also these packs might still cast off the non-alphas who perhaps would have a less agressive stance towards the non-aggressive humans and they might choose another nearby "pack" to live with.
--
Those are my thoughts, based on nothing in particular.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 04:05:54 [Permalink]
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It's fun to speculate, especially when we have no professional reputation at stake in the field. (Nobody's going to say, "The misguided doctrines of HalfMooner and Big Papa Smurf set the field of dog domestication back by decades.")
Coppinger is also a damned readable writer and a general authority in dog training. Unlike Cesar Millan and most trainers, he doesn't think people have to or should be "pack leaders" (dogs have weak pack structure for starters). Nor does Coppinger constantly refer to the importance of undefined "energy" to explain what he observes and does.
What I like about Coppinger's theory of self-domestication is that it's "elegant". He shows a straightforward and simple way that wolves could have accidentally made themselves into dogs over tens, hundreds, or thousands of years, and shows how it have happened as simple natural selection of the wolves themselves.
Remember that the dog was the first domesticated animal. Nobody knew how to train or artificially select any animal, or even knew what a dog was. They probably did not have had a domestic goal when they looked at wolves.
Self-domestication doesn't require any concept of a good dog by humans, which is fortunate since nobody knew how to tame animals anyway.
Also, self-domestication by flight-distance reduction over generations doesn't run counter to anything we know.
Sometimes a theory (like relativity or evolution) stands out because of its elegant esthetics. I think this is one of them. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/28/2012 04:09:07 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2012 : 07:37:54 [Permalink]
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| Now if only we could domesticate man...that would be an accomplishment. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2012 : 08:11:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Now if only we could domesticate man...that would be an accomplishment.
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Women have been working on that for millennia, so far without much success. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 13:36:41 [Permalink]
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Fascinating topic. I enjoyed the NOVA episode Dogs Decoded.
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| Edited by - ThorGoLucky on 02/01/2012 13:37:31 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2012 : 23:03:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by ThorGoLucky
Fascinating topic. I enjoyed the NOVA episode Dogs Decoded.
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Sadly, I don't receive PBS or Nova here in the Philippines. The PBS Web site tells me that Dogs Decoded is no longer available online, but I did find it here, in three parts. Not very high resolution, but that's the way I need it, given my approximately .3 MBps Internet connection.
Wonderful documentary, thanks! I learned a lot, especially about the confirmation of how dogs read the right side of the human face, and how (as shown with the Siberian fox experiments) neoteny and its complex of doggish traits simply hitchhikes along with other genetic traits when selecting for non-aggression.
The fact that apparently only dogs (and not chimps) understand human pointing is also interesting. (Though I've had a dog or two who persisted in staring only at my finger when I pointed to something.)
The statement by one researcher that the domestication of dogs was necessary to the beginning of agriculture was jaw-droppingly provocative.
Another guy stated that dogs are parasites. Though a dog-lover, I wholly agree. Pooches fit every definition of parasitism. But in a good way, I think.
Fascinating stuff! Thanks again for mentioning the show. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet
213 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 15:56:45 [Permalink]
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I am not doing too well in the other threads so I hope being a dog lover and owner might find some affinity in this group. I have a Jindo Korean dog. The closest picture of a look alike is what I posted.
I heard about Koreans eating dogs and the white Jindo is what is left of a species that included brown and gray varieties before it entered Korean culinary interest.
I have a hard time with Rex...he is very independent and more a hunt dog. Tex is constantly darting at everything that moves and pees on every other dog he sees. But at home Rex is very docile. Will not eat off the table, go searching in closets or chew on things he is not supposed to.
I find the smell of boiling water bothers him. But he is just completing 2 years and I heard this is when they are mature to follow complex instructions.
Since this is my first dog. Any advise will be helpful. I just want Rex to grow up smart and avoid skeptics.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2012 : 19:35:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by jamalrapper
. . .
Since this is my first dog. Any advise will be helpful. I just want Rex to grow up smart and avoid skeptics. |
Ah, but dogs are skeptics. If there's no reward for them, they joyfully ignore the Way of the Master. To a dog, it's a material world. It's all about, "Where's the beef?"
The dog in the photo looks great, sort of like a Philippines askal, but furrier. But he's not your dog, just sort of a sockpuppet for the dog you say you have, jamalrapper justintime. If you really do have such a dog, I hope you don't call him a "cock sucker" when doesn't do everything you like. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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ThomasPellet
Sockpuppet
4 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 14:29:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by jamalrapper
. . .
Since this is my first dog. Any advise will be helpful. I just want Rex to grow up smart and avoid skeptics. |
Ah, but dogs are skeptics. If there's no reward for them, they joyfully ignore the Way of the Master. To a dog, it's a material world. It's all about, "Where's the beef?"
The dog in the photo looks great, sort of like a Philippines askal, but furrier. But he's not your dog, just sort of a sockpuppet for the dog you say you have, jamalrapper justintime. If you really do have such a dog, I hope you don't call him a "cock sucker" when doesn't do everything you like.
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It is a waste of get time to get a filipino to suck dick. They rather have their ass ripped by Americans. It shows less. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 15:49:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by ThomasPellet
It is a waste of get time to get a filipino to suck dick. They rather have their ass ripped by Americans. It shows less.
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Why don't I see "banned" beside this guy's name yet?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 16:14:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by ThomasPellet
It is a waste of get time to get a filipino to suck dick. They rather have their ass ripped by Americans. It shows less.
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Why don't I see "banned" beside this guy's name yet?
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He was banned when he was justintime. His two latest incarnations were as sockpuppets of a banned member, which is the same as saying he's banned. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2012 : 16:28:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
He was banned when he was justintime. His two latest incarnations were as sockpuppets of a banned member, which is the same as saying he's banned.
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Ah, ok. Carry on then. 
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Hominids and Canids Trekking Together
