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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2012 :  21:43:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Oh. I didn't notice that Douglas Ax is the managing editor of Bio-complexity. And I checked. The third paper also has a couple people on staff. Must be a serious grind to get through peer review, eh?
Maybe SFN could help. We might offer to publish all the great papers they get that don't quite meet their rigorous peer review standards. (I should have saved that idea for Moonscape!)

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet

213 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2012 :  22:47:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send jamalrapper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by jamalrapper

DaveW wrote: Of course, since the evolution of complex traits does not require all intermediaries to be neutral or maladaptive, the Axe paper doesn't declare "impossible" the evolution of the T3SS into the flagellum. And David vun Kannon points out that Axe's model doesn't match reality very well, anyway.


So now we have 2 computer geeks David vun Kannon a self aggrandizing highly opinionated terribly unrugged whimpy and our local skeptic wannabee DaveW commenting on a highly complex peer-reviewed work published by Douglas Axe a molecular biologist.

How the two got binary molecular nomenclature confused with base2 binary numeral system can only be described as two confused functional idiots in the mathematical sense. Poor substitutions, nevertheless.
So you are incapable of actually addressing any of the criticisms of Axe's paper, you merely resort to insults, an argument from credentials, and a ludicrously hypocritical assertion of peer-review. I think that gives me a win in Absurd Creationist Rhetoric Bingo.

You might want to try following a different script next time. Your Dunning-Kruger-inspired shtick is as old as Lazarus.


It is quite obvious you have not understood what David vun Kannon is questioning much less why his questions are irrelevant to Doug Axe's rebuttal of Lynch Abegg. Neither is David criticizing Axe's work because Axe is primarily addressing the calculation errors made by Lynch/Abegg and the effect it has on the end results.
This latest paper from Axe responds to arguments from Michael Lynch and Adam Abegg(The rate of establishment of complex adaptations.
by Michael Lynch, Adam Abegg ), finding that they made a mistake--actually two mistakes--in their calculation of the length of time required for multiple mutations to occur when there is no adaptive benefit until all mutations are in place.

Axe finds they made a mistake in their calculations regarding stochastic tunneling: The primary model Axe tackles in his paper is stochastic tunneling, a model that is in a sense midway between the molecular saltation and sequential fixation models.

Having identified mistakes in the model of Lynch and Abegg, Axe presents his own analysis, aiming to accurately model the evolution of a multi-mutation feature. He models it in two cases: (1) when intermediate mutations are slightly disadvantageous, and (2) when intermediate mutations are selectively neutral. Axe seeks to give neo-Darwinian evolution a generous helping of probabilistic resources by modeling the evolution of bacteria -- asexual organisms which reproduce quickly and have very large effective population sizes.

Axe's paper focuses on bacteria does not model the evolution of sexually reproducing organisms. But in sexually reproducing eukaryotic organisms, the longer generation times and lower effective population sizes would dramatically lower the number of mutations that could be fixed before acquiring some adaptive benefit.

Axe discusses the implications of his work:
[T]he most significant implication comes not from how the two cases contrast but rather how they cohere#8213;both showing severe limitations to complex adaptation. To appreciate this, consider the tremendous number of cells needed to achieve adaptations of such limited complexity. As a basis for calculation, we have assumed a bacterial population that maintained an effective size of 109 individuals through 103 generations each year for billions of years. This amounts to well over a billion trillion opportunities (in the form of individuals whose lines were not destined to expire imminently) for evolutionary experimentation. Yet what these enormous resources are expected to have accomplished, in terms of combined base changes, can be counted on the fingers.

In the end, the conclusion that complex adaptations cannot be very complex without running into feasibility problems appears to be robust.

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2012 :  06:55:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good news is nature is not restricted to 109 individual bacteria in identical environments.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2012 :  10:37:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Oh. I didn't notice that Douglas Ax is the managing editor of Bio-complexity. And I checked. The third paper also has a couple people on staff. Must be a serious grind to get through peer review, eh?


Sure must be. I'm figuring at least being part of the editorial staff or a $5,000 "love offering" with subsequent anti-evilution submission.

Aren't there impact ratings for journals? This one has got to be in the nearly zero range. Nature has one of 31.434.

OK, so the journal has been disproven as a valid authority, so thats an Argumentum ad verecundiam.

Mooner, if you are going ahead with that Peer Reviewed Journal of Woo, make sure the criteria for submissions be that the paper be submitted wrapped around 22 $100 bills left in a crack in the wall of the Las Vegas Greyhound bus station.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2012 :  10:51:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jamalrapper

It is quite obvious you have not understood what David vun Kannon is questioning much less why his questions are irrelevant to Doug Axe's rebuttal of Lynch Abegg. Neither is David criticizing Axe's work because Axe is primarily addressing the calculation errors made by Lynch/Abegg and the effect it has on the end results.
This latest paper from Axe responds to arguments from Michael Lynch and Adam Abegg(The rate of establishment of complex adaptations.
by Michael Lynch, Adam Abegg ), finding that they made a mistake--actually two mistakes--in their calculation of the length of time required for multiple mutations to occur when there is no adaptive benefit until all mutations are in place.

Axe finds they made a mistake in their calculations regarding stochastic tunneling: The primary model Axe tackles in his paper is stochastic tunneling, a model that is in a sense midway between the molecular saltation and sequential fixation models.

Having identified mistakes in the model of Lynch and Abegg, Axe presents his own analysis, aiming to accurately model the evolution of a multi-mutation feature. He models it in two cases: (1) when intermediate mutations are slightly disadvantageous, and (2) when intermediate mutations are selectively neutral. Axe seeks to give neo-Darwinian evolution a generous helping of probabilistic resources by modeling the evolution of bacteria -- asexual organisms which reproduce quickly and have very large effective population sizes.

Axe's paper focuses on bacteria does not model the evolution of sexually reproducing organisms. But in sexually reproducing eukaryotic organisms, the longer generation times and lower effective population sizes would dramatically lower the number of mutations that could be fixed before acquiring some adaptive benefit.

Axe discusses the implications of his work:
[T]he most significant implication comes not from how the two cases contrast but rather how they cohere#8213;both showing severe limitations to complex adaptation. To appreciate this, consider the tremendous number of cells needed to achieve adaptations of such limited complexity. As a basis for calculation, we have assumed a bacterial population that maintained an effective size of 109 individuals through 103 generations each year for billions of years. This amounts to well over a billion trillion opportunities (in the form of individuals whose lines were not destined to expire imminently) for evolutionary experimentation. Yet what these enormous resources are expected to have accomplished, in terms of combined base changes, can be counted on the fingers.

In the end, the conclusion that complex adaptations cannot be very complex without running into feasibility problems appears to be robust.



The above seems to be hobbled together from an article by Casey Luskin (who most of us know as one of mouth pieces at the DI.) The link to the article is:

BIO-Complexity Paper Shows Many Multi-Mutation Features Unlikely to Evolve in History of the Earth


When quoting stuff like this, links should be provided. Just saying.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet

213 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2012 :  12:54:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send jamalrapper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry for repeating my post here but it is in response to remembering to include all links and citations. I sure can and will do.

I just assumed I was dealing with a knowledgeable group of people who based their skepticism on what was being said and not who was saying it. That might explain why your biases are so transparent. You must have a recommended list of reading material such as (Carl Sagan). With the billions of stars and galaxies out there one has to be skeptical when told no other life exist except on earth. Or that a monkey jumping randomly on a typewriter will not eventually produce a work of Shakespeare.
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2012 :  13:56:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jamalrapper

Sorry for repeating my post here but it is in response to remembering to include all links and citations. I sure can and will do.

I just assumed I was dealing with a knowledgeable group of people who based their skepticism on what was being said and not who was saying it.
Who says it can be important when that individual has a known bias and a history of getting the sicence wrong in an effort confirm that bias. Most here are very familiar with the work of Behe, Dembski, and the ID apologist crowd.

Originally posted by jamalrapper

That might explain why your biases are so transparent.
Sure, biased against those getting the science wrong.

Originally posted by jamalrapper

You must have a recommended list of reading material such as (Carl Sagan). With the billions of stars and galaxies out there one has to be skeptical when told no other life exist except on earth.
That we can confirm. It is a reasonable expectation that other life does exist somewhere, though.

Originally posted by jamalrapper

Or that a monkey jumping randomly on a typewriter will not eventually produce a work of Shakespeare.
Another creationist standard.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2012 :  15:19:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jamalrapper

It is quite obvious you have not understood what David vun Kannon is questioning much less why his questions are irrelevant to Doug Axe's rebuttal of Lynch Abegg. Neither is David criticizing Axe's work because Axe is primarily addressing the calculation errors made by Lynch/Abegg and the effect it has on the end results.
This latest paper from Axe responds to arguments from Michael Lynch and Adam Abegg(The rate of establishment of complex adaptations...
So let me get this straight: you were content to dismiss my criticisms based on the fact that I'm not a molecular biologist, but you're going to support your own argument by quoting from a blog post by someone who isn't a molecular biologist? Your hypocrisy is astounding.

But never mind that. You cited Axe's article in support of your contention, "There is no evidence of that [flagellum evolution from T3SS] nor can that be proven and in fact it is declared impossible." To declare it impossible, it is nowhere near enough to simply find errors in someone else's work. For example, if I tell you that I only have three quarters, and together they make 83 cents, you pointing out my arithmetic error does not falsify my conclusion that I have less than a dollar.

Therefore your "in fact it is declared impossible" must rest upon Axe's own modeling, and not his discovery of someone else's errors. It is that modeling that vun Kannon criticized. And it was your misappropriation from Axe's highly limited model (Lynch and Abegg's model was very narrow, also) to a specific evolved trait that I criticized. You have addressed neither very relevant criticism.

But let's look at Axe's criticisms of Lynch and Abegg's paper:
Specifically, of all the possible evolutionary paths a population can take, the analysis of Lynch and Abegg considers only those special paths that lead directly to the desired end—the complex adaptation. This is best illustrated with an example. Suppose a population carries an allele that confers no selective benefit in its current state (e.g., a pseudogene or a gene duplicate) but which would confer a benefit if it were to acquire five specific nucleotide changes relative to that initial state, which we will again refer to as stage 0. Lynch and Abegg assign a waiting time of (5u)-1 for a stage-1 allele to become fixed in this situation, which is valid only if we can safely assume that the population remains at stage 0 during this wait. But this cannot be assumed. A stage-0 allele of kilobase length, for example, would have about 200-fold more correct bases than incorrect ones (with respect to the complex adaptation), which means the rate of degradation (i.e., fixation of changes that make the complex adaptation more remote) would be about 600-fold higher3 than the rate of progression to stage 1. It is therefore very unlikely in such a case that the population will wait at stage 0 long enough to reach stage 1, and the situation becomes progressively worse as we consider higher stages.

It is possible to adjust the problem to some extent in order to achieve a more favorable result. For example, if we suppose that all changes except the five desired ones are highly maladaptive, then fixation becomes restricted to changes at the five sites. But even under these artificial restrictions, Equation 2 is incorrect in that it ignores back mutations [6]. Since the aim is to acquire the correct bases at all d sites, and there are more incorrect possibilities than correct ones at each site, counterproductive changes must substantially outnumber productive changes as the number of correct bases increases. So even in this highly favorable case, the analysis suffers from neglect of counterproductive competing paths. Productive changes cannot be ‘banked’, whereas Equation 2 presupposes that they can.
This is wrong for three reasons. One is that mutations to bases which don't affect the selection coefficient of the complex mutation in question (most of them) are irrelevant to the time it takes to fix the complex mutation, while Axe seems to think that mutations to "incorrect" sites will always be counter-productive. Two, the model specifically assumes a back-mutation rate of zero, but it also assumes other unrealistic characteristics which Axe doesn't have a problem with. Three, the time to fixation depends hugely on population size (and not just mutation rate), because sequential fixation (which is what Axe is talking about, here) becomes less important as population size increases (and back mutations become less important in larger populations, too). Axe's criticism here seems to revolve around effects that would hamper the process in tiny populations, and sure enough, Lynch and Abegg's results show that smaller populations have much longer times to fixation than larger populations.
Lynch and Abegg’s treatment of stochastic tunneling with neutral intermediates is also problematic. To derive an expression for the waiting time when the population is large enough to preclude fixation of intermediate stages (Equation 5b of reference 6), they approximate the frequency of stage-d alleles at t generations as (ut)d. While they note that this approximation is valid only if ut << 1, they overlook the fact that this restricts their analysis to exceedingly small values (ut)d. Specifically, they equate this term with the substantial allele frequency at which fixation becomes likely4, and then proceed to solve for t, taking the result to be valid for arbitrarily large values of d. This leads them to the unexpected conclusion that “in very large populations with neutral intermediates, as d→∞, the time to establishment converges on the reciprocal of the per-site mutation rate, becoming independent of the number of mutations required for the adaptation” [6]. But since they have in this way neglected the effect of d, it should be no surprise that they find d to have little effect.
What's surprising is that Axe apparently ignored the fact that they were talking about the effect of d in the very section in which he's claiming they are neglecting it. And Axe apparently ignored what they wrote right before the sentence he quoted:
A primary reason for this behavior is that a multistage route to adaptation increases the number of paths to the final adaptive state by magnifying the numbers of possible mutations in the early stages of the process. At large d, this increase in the number of possible paths comes close to compensating for the increase in the number of steps required to reach the final adaptive state.
What Axe is doing is demanding that they treat stochastic tunneling as if it were sequential fixation, and thus he is ignoring the real process in question. (ut)d represents the frequency of the whole finished (stage-d) complex mutation at time t. But individuals with a partial (and random) set of mutations will be much more frequent at early t, and that's what makes d less and less relevant as it rises.

I'll get to Axe's own model sometime later, maybe. But again: even if Axe's criticisms of Lynch and Abegg were sound and valid, they do nothing to "declare impossible" the evolution of T3SS into the flagellum.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2012 :  15:21:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jamalrapper

I just assumed I was dealing with a knowledgeable group of people who based their skepticism on what was being said and not who was saying it.
Hypocrite.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet

213 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2012 :  17:56:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send jamalrapper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by jamalrapper

I just assumed I was dealing with a knowledgeable group of people who based their skepticism on what was being said and not who was saying it.
Hypocrite.

I am sorry DaveW but you are always chasing the bus but never on it. You just keep missing the point. The argument started with Behe's bacteria flagellum and the rotary complex design. Miller claimed the T3SS was a precursor to Behe's bacteria flagellum using data to demonstrate irreducible complexity can in fact be reduced to simpler adaptations of the design where a flagellum can be reduced to a syringe as in the T3SS which only has like 10 proteins of the 40plus found in the flagellum.
So the calculation Axe presents is to disprove complex adaption can happen within the said limits based on the Lynch Abegg's calculation.

It is not about data mining but understanding what the debate is about and how these technical material are introduced to press the point. Axe's conclusion btw was the T3SS probably came after Behe's flagellum.
These examples should not be taken out of context.

You don't have to accept intelligent design....we can live with your decision. But don't punish us for your inadequacies.
Edited by - jamalrapper on 02/15/2012 18:00:14
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1888 Posts

Posted - 02/15/2012 :  19:45:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jamalrapper

You don't have to accept intelligent design....we can live with your decision. But don't punish us for your inadequacies.

Why don't you address his previous comment?

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2012 :  08:11:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jamalrapper

I am sorry DaveW but you are always chasing the bus but never on it. You just keep missing the point.
Well, since you've been posting links to papers that have nothing to do with your argument, I can't help but miss it.
The argument started with Behe's bacteria flagellum and the rotary complex design. Miller claimed the T3SS was a precursor to Behe's bacteria flagellum using data to demonstrate irreducible complexity can in fact be reduced to simpler adaptations of the design where a flagellum can be reduced to a syringe as in the T3SS which only has like 10 proteins of the 40plus found in the flagellum.
So you're talking about The Flagellum Unspun.
So the calculation Axe presents is to disprove complex adaption can happen within the said limits based on the Lynch Abegg's calculation.
But neither Miller's name nor the word "flagellum" appear in Axe's paper, and there's no reason to think that the flagellum evolved from the TTSS via only neutral mutations, so Axe's general calculation doesn't apply. And Matzke's 2006 article points out that the differences between TTSS and flagellum are far fewer than once thought (only two flagellar proteins have no known homologies, for example).
It is not about data mining but understanding what the debate is about and how these technical material are introduced to press the point.
So why don't you present your technical argument, instead of referencing papers which are irrelevant to it?
Axe's conclusion btw was the T3SS probably came after Behe's flagellum.
Perhaps you could link to any paper or video in which Axe comes to such a conclusion, because I can't find any. The DI's list of "peer-reviewed" ID papers doesn't include any papers by Axe with the word "flagellum" in the description.
These examples should not be taken out of context.
And you need to provide the context. Why do you refuse?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet

213 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2012 :  09:06:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send jamalrapper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
DaveW, I don't know why you have such a problem connecting Axe's work with Dr Behe. Axe is a supporter of Intelligent Design.
Check link: http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/12/10/doug-axe-defends-intelligent-design-at-science-conference-in-germany/

Axe does not mention the flagellum or the T3SS. His work is on modeling of complex adaptations in bacteria, adaptations requiring multiple mutations, with all intermediates being non-adaptive. I have already provided a link to his paper.

It is this piece of Axe's work that supports Irreducible Complexity because complex adaptation requiring nultiple mutations is not possible and non-adaptive. Now this information was not used in the KitzMiller, Dover trial because it was published after the case was closed.

What is most unfortunate is seeing ill informed people getting all hung up with the religious hype over Intelligent Design and not appreciating the science behind Irreducible Complexity. It is even more disconcerting when you have skeptics who don't know enough about religion/science/evolution/biology calling knowledge seeking individuals hypocrite. That is a judgmental call and subjective at best. Somewhere in the thousands of post on SFN one might still find an iota of objectivity.

Get some qualified people on the board, Please.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2012 :  12:08:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jamalrapper

DaveW, I don't know why you have such a problem connecting Axe's work with Dr Behe.
I don't. I have a problem finding any support for your contention that Axe disproved the TTSS→flagellum hypothesis, as I've already explained.
Axe is a supporter of Intelligent Design.
I've known that for years.
Check link: http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/12/10/doug-axe-defends-intelligent-design-at-science-conference-in-germany/
This doesn't support your contention, either.
Axe does not mention the flagellum or the T3SS.
So when you said, "Axe's conclusion btw was the T3SS probably came after Behe's flagellum," you were just making shit up.
His work is on modeling of complex adaptations in bacteria, adaptations requiring multiple mutations, with all intermediates being non-adaptive. I have already provided a link to his paper.

It is this piece of Axe's work that supports Irreducible Complexity because complex adaptation requiring nultiple mutations is not possible and non-adaptive.
That's not what Axe's paper said at all. The model is very narrow and only describes multiple neutral mutations, and doesn't even attempt to address a scenario in which the intermediate stages offer a selective advantage. And you have yet to address the criticisms of Axe's model.
Now this information was not used in the KitzMiller, Dover trial because it was published after the case was closed.
And it's still only narrowly applicable, and contains flaws. It would have done nothing to change the outcome of Kitzmiller v. Dover because the school board members perjured themselves about their motivations, the creationist origins of ID were completely exposed and Behe so thoroughly embarrassed himself on the stand. One little paper cannot (and has not) turned ID or IC into scientific concepts, even though Axe obviously tried really hard to do so.
What is most unfortunate is seeing ill informed people getting all hung up with the religious hype over Intelligent Design and not appreciating the science behind Irreducible Complexity.
You haven't shown us any science behind IC.
It is even more disconcerting when you have skeptics who don't know enough about religion/science/evolution/biology calling knowledge seeking individuals hypocrite.
You are a hypocrite for doing what you criticize others for doing.
That is a judgmental call and subjective at best.
No, it's an objective fact. You criticized me for not being a molecular biologist, and then you referenced with approval a non-molecular biologist on the same subject. That is hypocrisy, no subjective judgment call required.
Somewhere in the thousands of post on SFN one might still find an iota of objectivity.
Not from the posts of jamalrapper, that's for sure.
Get some qualified people on the board, Please.
Since you refuse to address valid, objective criticisms of your arguments, why would any qualified people waste their time on you?

Criticisms of Axe's own model:

1) Axe considers a population size of only 109 individuals. There are about 1015 E. coli in a single human gut (and so nearly 1025 E. coli in the whole world, just in human guts), so Axe's population for his modeled bacteria is absurdly small. (Lynch and Abegg's calculations and simulations ran from 101 to 1011 individuals, but they weren't modeling bacteria.)

3) Axe assumes that each bacterial line in his analysis begins with a single cell, providing a periodic bottlenecking of mutations for no seeming good reason at all. Even though he references Maruyama and Kimura, Axe seems to fail to grasp their model very well.

4) Worse than 3, he appears to assume that each stage-i line is genetically identical to all others, completely missing the fact that two different organisms can have two different sets of mutations. He further assumes that all stage-i lines will be present in the same proportion in the population as all other stage-i lines.

5) Axe has his bacterial lines exist for a fixed duration. All of them the same.

6) Axe's equations for the maladaptive intermediates case cannot tolerate a selection coefficient of zero, and close to zero they fail to match other equation results. In other words, the selective disadvantage to be modeled has to be large in order for Axe's equations to even function, which is why he has to treat neutral mutations as a special case.

7) Axe was, in fact, forced to introduce back-mutation to eliminate neutral mutations, perhaps because he couldn't figure out how to model a population of bacteria realistically (as if the above criticisms weren't enough evidence of that already). Not that back-mutation doesn't exist in nature, but Axe is artificially "balancing" neutral duplications with back-mutations instead of allowing the mutations to spread or die out naturally.

8) Axe assumes that indels prevent progression of a bacterial line towards the complex adaptation, and doesn't consider the case where they might be a part of the complex adaptation. Instead, he calculates the odds that a gene will include indels, and simply eliminates that proportion of bacteria from consideration. This would, of course, make time-to-fixation longer, but it is an artificial limitation.

9) He then similarly eliminates all bacteria containing genes which might have accumulated so many mutations that the protein they code for is degraded beyond all function. Really, what he's doing here is picking nits, because while he's thinking that these factors make his equations more realistic, he's already placed unrealistic limitations on them in other ways (see above).

10) Despite the limitations Axe placed on the model, figure 2 shows that for a two-mutation adaptation with neutral intermediates, only three or maybe four generations are needed for the adaptation to become fixed in a population of a billion bacteria. This is absurdly low and demonstrates that his math must be wrong, somewhere.

11) Axe actually says what he criticized Lynch and Abegg for saying, namely "Because higher values of d provide more constructive mutation possibilities in the early stages en route to the complex adaptation, the staircases gradually become less steep as d increases."

12) Axe thinks the flattening of Lynch and Abegg's equation 18 is too fast, yet seems to have nothing more than an argument from incredulity to back it up.

13) Figure 4 of Axe's paper allegedly shows the results of equation 16 again (see criticism #10), but this time the d=1 case is shown, and it is shown as needing about one tenth of one generation. Axe must not be measuring to fixation of the complex adaptation, but instead to its mere appearance, assuming that because it has a very slight selective advantage, it will eventually become fixed. This makes his results not directly comparable to Lynch and Abegg's, but makes figure 2 more believable.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9688 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2012 :  12:17:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jamalrapper

Kenneth Miller should be the poster child for Christians struggling with Evolution/Darwinism.
Absolutely. Miller - just like any good Christian should - doesn't deny scientific evidence when he sees it. He see evidence of evolution in the biological specimens he examines, and don't say "Intelligent Designer"-did-it.


His basic premise is God created the physical and natural laws that govern the processes within which gravity and evolution operate(the frameworks is gods creation. Evolution is not an act of random chance or process but of order and purpose even as it peddles along without intrusive periodical divine intervention.
Precisely. Though the premise that God is behind it all is unscientific, since there is no way to test it. It's conjecture at this point. But the natural laws are here, and doing work.


The fact that it has worked as well as it has suggest an intelligent creator somewhat different from intelligent design which suggest some of the dumb stuff found could be attributed to dumb mistakes in design....no that you blame evolution for.
"If there is a god, then he's a dumb fuck..." I agree absolutely. And if there is an Intelligent Designer, then he/she/it/them isn't very intelligent at all considering the number of stupid things that can be found in nature.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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