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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
 Posted - 02/29/2012 : 14:41:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by jamalrapper
We are bearers of good news... |
I'm the bearer of even better news: We don't need Jesus because we have been innocent all along. |
| Edited by - ThorGoLucky on 02/29/2012 14:42:19 |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 10:26:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Oh, deer, isn't that convenient? By Klinghoffer, even lack of evidence for a Designer is now evidence for the subtlety of His work. That's just how His Shyness, the Lord God Almighty rolls. The Shy Guy in the Sky. Or as Klinghoffer puts it, "It's just who he is."
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Seems like this guy and most ID'ers don't want to admit there is no concrete proof that the God of the Bible exists.
I think I.D. is a waste of money, time and effort. From where I sit even if Christians could prove the universe was designed, that does not get Christian's any closer to proving the God of the Bible designed it. The Bible simply states that we should know that a God exists from observing the creation (Romans 1). It does not say we can know the gospel from observing creation, that takes preaching (Romans 10) and the Holy Spirit (John 16).
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 11:06:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I think I.D. is a waste of money, time and effort. |
Not only that, but it's a waste of our money, time and effort. As long as ID morons are trying to push God-in-disguise in science classroom, they are distracting and drawing resources away from real science, by forcing us to react and respond to them.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 11:18:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
I think I.D. is a waste of money, time and effort. |
Not only that, but it's a waste of our money, time and effort. As long as ID morons are trying to push God-in-disguise in science classroom, they are distracting and drawing resources away from real science, by forcing us to react and respond to them.
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I think you can say this about anything. Parents do have the right to petition the school boards of schools they are paying to support. That doesn't mean the school board has to change anything in response. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2012 : 20:44:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
I think I.D. is a waste of money, time and effort. |
Not only that, but it's a waste of our money, time and effort. As long as ID morons are trying to push God-in-disguise in science classroom, they are distracting and drawing resources away from real science, by forcing us to react and respond to them.
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I think you can say this about anything. Parents do have the right to petition the school boards of schools they are paying to support. That doesn't mean the school board has to change anything in response.
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Intentionally missing the point?
Point out one other issue that has caused the havoc that creationism, ID being the most recent incarnation, has caused for education nationally. Have any other issues piled up millions in legal costs for school districts and school boards? Any other issues that have state legislatures passing laws to try and slide something into public schools that is forbidden by federal law, on a semi regular basis?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2012 : 06:12:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Intentionally missing the point? |
No, it was quite unintentional.
Originally posted by Dude
Point out one other issue that has caused the havoc that creationism, ID being the most recent incarnation, has caused for education nationally. Have any other issues piled up millions in legal costs for school districts and school boards? Any other issues that have state legislatures passing laws to try and slide something into public schools that is forbidden by federal law, on a semi regular basis? |
I agree that it has cost money, but that fact does not negate that citizens should have the ability to try and shape their public schools in a way they want. I can't think of a way to stop them from trying. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2012 : 08:59:06 [Permalink]
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How about pointing out to them that it is a violation of federal law to teach creationism in public school science classrooms?
I agree that communities should have (and they do have, within limits) the option to run schools as they like. But the fact is that federal and state tax money pays for public schools and federal laws prohibit certain things in those schools.
I personally think we should add a criminal statute at the federal level that makes it possible to penalize people and school boards that enact policies that violate federal law. The penalty is that they (the individual people) pay cash for the legal costs involved when they are forced by the courts to bring their policies in line with the already existing laws.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2012 : 12:15:26 [Permalink]
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Schools can teach creationism in public schools. In comparative religions classes, where they belong, among other world- and/or relevant religions.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2012 : 13:07:58 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by DudeI personally think we should add a criminal statute at the federal level that makes it possible to penalize people and school boards that enact policies that violate federal law. The penalty is that they (the individual people) pay cash for the legal costs involved when they are forced by the courts to bring their policies in line with the already existing laws. |
You'd have to have someone on record in an official capacity telling them that it's not in line with existing laws. Otherwise, it'd be unfair to enforce because some federal laws are hard to understand and you could violate one inadvertently fairly easily.
Without that, this sort of thing could significantly reduce the autonomy of any non-federal governing body. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2012 : 22:34:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
| Originally posted by DudeI personally think we should add a criminal statute at the federal level that makes it possible to penalize people and school boards that enact policies that violate federal law. The penalty is that they (the individual people) pay cash for the legal costs involved when they are forced by the courts to bring their policies in line with the already existing laws. |
You'd have to have someone on record in an official capacity telling them that it's not in line with existing laws. Otherwise, it'd be unfair to enforce because some federal laws are hard to understand and you could violate one inadvertently fairly easily.
Without that, this sort of thing could significantly reduce the autonomy of any non-federal governing body.
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Since when does ignorance of the law allow you to not comply with the law?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 00:51:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by Machi4velli
| Originally posted by DudeI personally think we should add a criminal statute at the federal level that makes it possible to penalize people and school boards that enact policies that violate federal law. The penalty is that they (the individual people) pay cash for the legal costs involved when they are forced by the courts to bring their policies in line with the already existing laws. |
You'd have to have someone on record in an official capacity telling them that it's not in line with existing laws. Otherwise, it'd be unfair to enforce because some federal laws are hard to understand and you could violate one inadvertently fairly easily.
Without that, this sort of thing could significantly reduce the autonomy of any non-federal governing body.
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Since when does ignorance of the law allow you to not comply with the law? |
Well, it's not a law. If it were, I'm arguing it's unfair. And who do you penalize? Penalizing "the board" doesn't really make sense, as some could have been opposed.
In general, the effect would be less active boards just not making any hard decisions that could imagineably be deemed controversial. In the end, why would someone want to put their own money up to even be on a board? It's not like you get much out of it. Plus, you'd essentially up the financial requirements of the members, so that they wouldn't be financially ruined by legal costs of potential drawn-out litigation. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 09:27:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by Machi4velli
| Originally posted by DudeI personally think we should add a criminal statute at the federal level that makes it possible to penalize people and school boards that enact policies that violate federal law. The penalty is that they (the individual people) pay cash for the legal costs involved when they are forced by the courts to bring their policies in line with the already existing laws. |
You'd have to have someone on record in an official capacity telling them that it's not in line with existing laws. Otherwise, it'd be unfair to enforce because some federal laws are hard to understand and you could violate one inadvertently fairly easily.
Without that, this sort of thing could significantly reduce the autonomy of any non-federal governing body.
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Since when does ignorance of the law allow you to not comply with the law? |
Well, it's not a law. If it were, I'm arguing it's unfair. And who do you penalize? Penalizing "the board" doesn't really make sense, as some could have been opposed.
In general, the effect would be less active boards just not making any hard decisions that could imagineably be deemed controversial. In the end, why would someone want to put their own money up to even be on a board? It's not like you get much out of it. Plus, you'd essentially up the financial requirements of the members, so that they wouldn't be financially ruined by legal costs of potential drawn-out litigation.
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Or maybe it would increase the integrity of school board members everywhere. Maybe it would prevent them from doing shit they know is illegal (and yes, it is illegal to teach creationism in public school classrooms, the law just isn't part of the penal code and carries no burden of punishment if you are guilty of violating it. The US constitution is law, isn't it?). Maybe it would make school boards be a little more cautious.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 11:24:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
But the fact is that federal and state tax money pays for public schools and federal laws prohibit certain things in those schools. |
I will start by saying I am not for teaching creationism/ID in our schools science classes.
I would ask how is it constitutional for the federal government to have any say in our childrens education? It is not enumerated in the constitution as one of its responsibilities. It should be left up to state and local governments.
Also, the school district where my children attend gets only 1.6% of its entire yearly budget from the federal government and only 0.11% of that is for anything other than breakfast and lunch programs. It gets 33% from state funding and the rest (65%) from local funding.
So why should the federal government have so much say in what we teach our children if it is not required to fund education and it funds so little at least in our school district?
| I personally think we should add a criminal statute at the federal level that makes it possible to penalize people and school boards that enact policies that violate federal law. The penalty is that they (the individual people) pay cash for the legal costs involved when they are forced by the courts to bring their policies in line with the already existing laws. |
The only case you can make that teaching I.D./creationism in schools science classes violates the constitution is that the federal government funds our schools. As I said earlier, the federal government has no constitutional responsibility to do so and so it should be left up to the states (10th ammendment). If a state decides to teach an I.D. curriculem in science class that does not violate the 1st ammendment. It does not establish a religion by the federal government or prohibit anybody free exercise of their religion.
From what I have read the federal governments involvement in public education is limited to constitutional protections of the 1st, 4th and 8th ammendments under the 14th ammendment. I can't see how these ammendments call for teaching creationism in public schools to be unconstitutional.
I will end by saying I am not for teaching creationism/ID in our schools science classes. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
| Edited by - Convinced on 03/29/2012 11:24:50 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 12:23:14 [Permalink]
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Well, you are wrong.
Tax money pays for public schools. Be it federal, state, or local.
Also, federal law takes precedence over state and local law. That is how the system is set up.
Teaching creationism in science classrooms is, as has been shown repeatedly, religious teaching (and is considered by the courts to be promoting a religion). The government of the US is prohibited from advancing any religion. That is true for all levels of government, federal down to local.
All US public schools are, therefore, prohibited from teaching creationism as if it were true.
Hope that helps.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2012 : 21:25:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by Machi4velli
| Originally posted by DudeI personally think we should add a criminal statute at the federal level that makes it possible to penalize people and school boards that enact policies that violate federal law. The penalty is that they (the individual people) pay cash for the legal costs involved when they are forced by the courts to bring their policies in line with the already existing laws. |
You'd have to have someone on record in an official capacity telling them that it's not in line with existing laws. Otherwise, it'd be unfair to enforce because some federal laws are hard to understand and you could violate one inadvertently fairly easily.
Without that, this sort of thing could significantly reduce the autonomy of any non-federal governing body.
|
Since when does ignorance of the law allow you to not comply with the law? |
Well, it's not a law. If it were, I'm arguing it's unfair. And who do you penalize? Penalizing "the board" doesn't really make sense, as some could have been opposed.
In general, the effect would be less active boards just not making any hard decisions that could imagineably be deemed controversial. In the end, why would someone want to put their own money up to even be on a board? It's not like you get much out of it. Plus, you'd essentially up the financial requirements of the members, so that they wouldn't be financially ruined by legal costs of potential drawn-out litigation.
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Or maybe it would increase the integrity of school board members everywhere. Maybe it would prevent them from doing shit they know is illegal (and yes, it is illegal to teach creationism in public school classrooms, the law just isn't part of the penal code and carries no burden of punishment if you are guilty of violating it. The US constitution is law, isn't it?). Maybe it would make school boards be a little more cautious. |
I mean I don't believe it's an illegal act to enact a law/rule that contradicts another law, as this happens quite often at all levels of government, typically inadvertently. For one thing, people at this level don't even understand law as they typically have no law credentials. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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God's "shyness" makes ID hard to prove?
