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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2012 : 01:19:48
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I'm interested to know what the official stances of atheist organisations are on this subject and their "reasoning" behind forming these moral positions.
Individual opinions (with justification) also welcome.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 01:53:54 [Permalink]
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Let me just get out my official atheist handbook here and, hmmmm... Ah oh. There isn't one!
Personally speaking, I think it should be legal. Take it out of the hands of pimps, lowlifes and assorted criminal types and have some health rules and other regulations, like they have in Nevada. It's going to happen anyway. So why leave it in the control of criminals?
Having said that, I abhor the objectification of woman. And certainly purchasing one is objectifying. So to my way of thinking, it's a practical matter and not something I generally aprove of. In the realm of politics, it's been more or less legal from the git-go, since whatever the currency was at the time was paid for favorable outcome for the payee. Sure there are laws. But political contributions, even if they are supposed to be reported, still influence decisions. So just to be clear, what kind of prostitution are we talking about here?
Come to think of it, it's all politics, social constructs (which may have some religious component), health issues and stuff like that.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 01:54:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I'm interested to know what the official stances of atheist organisations are on this subject and their "reasoning" behind forming these moral positions.
Individual opinions (with justification) also welcome.
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I'm not sure of any atheists being particularly moved by what atheist organizations' stances are -- I have no idea what they think, but I have personal thoughts.
If each person involved is a willing participant, I have no problem with prostitution. As it occurs typically in the US, this isn't the case, as pimps tend to be criminals (sure, they're criminals by virtue of their involvement prostitution, but I mean to say they are often criminals in other ways as well).
I believe it's possible to have prostitution safely, and as far as I know, some of the places in Vegas and certain European countries are examples of this. With safety and consent from everyone involved, which I do think is possible, I support legality. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 01:59:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Let me just get out my official atheist handbook here and, hmmmm... Ah oh. There isn't one!
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I am aware there is no handbook. I thought I was pretty clear that I was asking for the stances of official non-religious organisations and/or personal opinions, I don't see any need to be facetious.
| Having said that, I abhor the objectification of woman. And certainly purchasing one is objectifying. So to my way of thinking, it's a practical matter and not something I generally aprove of. |
I'm sure you don't mean to be so sexist but not all prostitutes are women. And if I may play devil's advocate, how does purchasing a sexual service differ from purchasing any other kind of service? Are you putting sex on some kind of spiritual pedestal?
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 04/06/2012 02:02:56 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 02:02:51 [Permalink]
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Are we talking in terms of legality or morality? Either way, I'd say it varies widely. Having a position on prostitution isn't a requirement of being an atheist, any more than is having a position on proper atheist footwear. So atheists and atheist groups are perfectly free to think and say what they want on the subject. There is a strong libertarian faction among atheists. I suppose they feel prostitution should be legal. They can defend their own position.
Myself, I think that since there is probably always going to be prostitution, society should try to insure that it is safe and fully consensual. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 02:04:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Are we talking in terms of legality or morality? Either way, I'd say it varies widely. Having a position on prostitution isn't a requirement of being an atheist, any more than is having a position on proper atheist footwear. So atheists and atheist groups are perfectly free to think and say what they want on the subject. There is a strong libertarian faction among atheists. I suppose they feel prostitution should be legal. They can defend their own position.
Myself, I think that since there is probably always going to be prostitution, society should try to insure that it is safe and fully consensual.
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I realise it's not an atheist requirement, I just want to know your stance and the moral reasoning behind it. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 02:08:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Originally posted by Kil
Let me just get out my official atheist handbook here and, hmmmm... Ah oh. There isn't one!
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I am aware there is no handbook. I thought I was pretty clear that I was asking for the stances of official non-religious organisations and/or personal opinions, I don't see any need to be facetious.
| Having said that, I abhor the objectification of woman. And certainly purchasing one is objectifying. So to my way of thinking, it's a practical matter and not something I generally aprove of. |
I'm sure you don't mean to be so sexist but not all prostitutes are women. And if I may play devil's advocate, how does purchasing a sexual service differ from purchasing any other kind of service? Are you putting sex on some kind of spiritual pedestal?
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Sorry. But the use of the word "official" pretty much means you think there is an approved stance on the issue. Just so you know, some atheists are conservatives and some are liberals and some are libertarians. Hell! There was a battle among atheists over the appropriateness of a woman being hit on in an elevator after she talked about how she doesn't want to be hit on.
And yeah. Men get objectified too. As for buying a service, as I said, I don't personally aprove, but it's going to happen, so my position is to make it safe. Nothing to do with spirituality and everything to do with turning people into objects. But again, the most important thing is to make it safe. And that means legalizing it. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 02:13:11 [Permalink]
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Which is why I referred to "non-religious/atheist organisations". Not just "all atheists in general".
Organisations may or may not have an official position on the issue. There are many non-religious institutions, are you saying none of them have any kind of approved stance? I thought the whole idea of founding something like a humanist society was to bring a group with a common ideology under one umbrella. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 02:27:42 [Permalink]
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From Humanist Manifesto II:
| SIXTH: In the area of sexuality, we believe that intolerant attitudes, often cultivated by orthodox religions and puritanical cultures, unduly repress sexual conduct. The right to birth control, abortion, and divorce should be recognized. While we do not approve of exploitive, denigrating forms of sexual expression, neither do we wish to prohibit, by law or social sanction, sexual behavior between consenting adults. The many varieties of sexual exploration should not in themselves be considered "evil." Without countenancing mindless permissiveness or unbridled promiscuity, a civilized society should be a tolerant one. Short of harming others or compelling them to do likewise, individuals should be permitted to express their sexual proclivities and pursue their lifestyles as they desire. We wish to cultivate the development of a responsible attitude toward sexuality, in which humans are not exploited as sexual objects, and in which intimacy, sensitivity, respect, and honesty in interpersonal relations are encouraged. Moral education for children and adults is an important way of developing awareness and sexual maturity. |
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 02:37:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
From Humanist Manifesto II:
| We wish to cultivate the development of a responsible attitude toward sexuality, in which humans are not exploited as sexual objects, and in which intimacy, sensitivity, respect, and honesty in interpersonal relations are encouraged. |
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I wonder if they are being deliberately vague... what is the threshold for "exploitation"? Some might view all prostitution as a form of exploitation. While others might see it as a service and a business transaction, and the call for "intimacy" towards sex can be viewed as a religious hang-up towards what is essentially a biological imperative. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 06:02:38 [Permalink]
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I second Kil's comments.
OFFC, you'll have to excuse our sensitivity to the idea that we are some sort of organization, you see we've been dealing with the nonsenseical notion that we are slaves to Dawkins/Darwins/Soviets etc. opinions for our entire non-theist lives. No doubt a notion you've dealt with being lumped together with every detestable "Christian" in history, by folks like us.
This is why I no longer identify as atheist, it's too broad. I find being lumped into the same catagory as Buddists and sun worshippers to be as offensive as a Southern baptist might feel about being included with Mormons. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 08:22:36 [Permalink]
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I think it should be legalized but regulated to ensure that the people in the business want to be there and are not being coerced.
W-2s filed, health care provided, PPE provided by the employer (required under OSHA), etc.
Remove the illegality, and you can tax it. Helps pay for stuff.
But I am not non-religious/atheist either. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 04/06/2012 08:24:03 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2012 : 09:00:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I wonder if they are being deliberately vague... |
Few things in the realm of human interactions are black-and-white.| ...what is the threshold for "exploitation"? |
Does there need to be just one? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2012 : 12:36:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
And if I may play devil's advocate, how does purchasing a sexual service differ from purchasing any other kind of service? |
Indeed.
Especially when there are legitimate services which are also quite intimate - like full-body massage which covers most parts (though not all) of the body, for the pleasure of the recipient.
That is my personal take on it. I don't know if any atheist organization have any opinion on the subject. It should be legalised and regulated to ensure that any engagements are made fully informed and with consent. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2012 : 12:43:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I wonder if they are being deliberately vague... |
Few things in the realm of human interactions are black-and-white.
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Except though the eyes of a religious fanatic.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2012 : 00:40:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I wonder if they are being deliberately vague... |
Few things in the realm of human interactions are black-and-white.| ...what is the threshold for "exploitation"? |
Does there need to be just one?
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Can be as many as you want as long as it clarifies their stance rather than dancing around it. The statement from the Humanist manifesto reads like vapid sentimentality (Probably written by a woman). If they are declaring themselves as being against sexual exploitation, then they need to define it to some degree. If they aren't, then don't bring it up at all. |
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What is the non-religious view on prosititution?
