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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2012 : 07:04:54 [Permalink]
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Links to the Paula Kirby kerfluffle (for those who don't know - like I didn't until recently - Paula Kirby is the executive director of the Richard Dawkins Foundation, UK, and a Washington Post blogger) in roughly chronological order:Ophelia Benson: That’s not a Godwin, that’s a Wollstonecraft
Rebecca Watson: Hot Gossip: We’re All Burqa-wearing Nazis
Paula Kirby: The Sisterhood of the Oppressed
Ophelia Benson: Nazis and Stasi and bears, oh my
atheistlogic: Sisterhood of the Oppressed – A Critique
Ophelia Benson: I made something trend on Twitter
Ophelia Benson: A life of meaning and purpose
Ken at Popehat: All This Talk of Harassment Is Harassing Me!
Ophelia Benson: Looking on in puzzled surprise
Jason Thibeault: People say nice things about FtB, mean things about Paula Kirby’s vitriol
Jadehawk: Paula Kirby wrote stupid shit
Ophelia Benson: The unapproved chorus
SUIRAUQA: Response to Paula Kirby's Open Letter to the Skeptic Community
PZ Myers: The saga of Paula Kirby
Ophelia Benson: Other way around
Ophelia Benson: Practicing being more assertive
Alex Gabriel: To Paula
Ophelia Benson: Another Alex speaks up The weirdest thing, to me, is that Paula Kirby's essay basically tells women who have stopped "seizing on excuses for staying quiet and submissive" to be quiet. In other words, women can't win in Paula Kirby's eyes: if you're silent, she says you need to be more assertive, but if you're more assertive (like the feminists on FtB), she says you need to shut the fuck up. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 11:35:57 [Permalink]
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Stephanie Zvan has updated her post on the lack of a harassment policy at TAM this year:Update: According to one tweet, volunteers at TAM did receive training this year on how to handle harassment complaints. This isn’t something people should have to find through a tweet on the hashtag, but at least it’s something. The Tweet in question:For others' info, volunteers had training on proper process to follow if any kind of harassment is reported at #tam2012 Meanwhile, Surly Amy (who led the drive to fund grants for 22 women to attend TAM 2012) has left a day early, for reasons I can't find. But Elyse Anders tweeted:Sad hearing stories of women leaving #TAM2012 early because of how they were treated this year. I guess we just can't have nice things. :( And she replied to a query about her use of the plural with:At least two. And to the level they had to leave early. Somebody (who is live-blogging TAM) blurted out this:An interesting tweet from Elyse Anders: “Sad hearing stories of women leaving #tam2012 early because of how they were treated this year. I guess we can’t have nice things.”. This, I believe, is total and complete bullshit, and is little more than a preliminary attempt by the FtB/Skepchicks/CFI axis to frame the reality of what happened at TAM2012 for their own (in my opinion) nefarious purposes. The only person I have heard leaving early is Amy Roth (aka Surly Amy) who, apparently, considers disagreement to be the same as harassment or mistreatment. But the FtB/Skepchicks/CFI axis will no doubt attempt to frame TAM2012 as an environment that is unfriendly to women, no doubt as a prelude to promoting their own “women-friendly” alternatives. The ploy is so obvious that it is laughable. TAM2012 has been friendly to everyone that did not come here with a FtB/Skepchicks/CFI axis chip on their shoulder. Nice continuation of the feminazi meme there, with the "axis" label. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 16:16:38 [Permalink]
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Oh, the dude who liveblogged the crap about the "FtB/Skepchicks/CFI axis" had this to say about Pamela Gay's talk:Then Pamela Gay came out and gave what was, to be blunt, a boring, self-reverential, and useless waste of time. Nothing learned, nothing really said. It is an inspirational talk that is not inspirational. “I and my friends are wonderful and important, and so can you be” and in the most boring possible way. Then, towards the end, she goes into sexual harassment by “men in power” at astronomy conferences. “If pisses me off that as strong as I am, I can’t name names and expect to have a career tomorrow.”
Then she complains about sexual harassment at her place of employment, where, apparently she grins and bears it instead of reporting it to HR.
Says she has had breasts and butt grabbed by drunk guys in the skeptical conference/events, but, she says NOT TAM.
This has become a long rant on Internet trolling and negativity. This talk will, no doubt get a standing ovation. It doesn’t deserve it, but it will get one.
12:38. Yup. Undeserved standing ovation. Emphasis his, but it's a misrepresentation of what she said. She said she hadn't experienced any grabbing at this TAM, but that she'd been grabbed by people who were at this TAM. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 21:29:51 [Permalink]
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| I'm glad it got a standing ovation. Man, this has turned into such a divisive issue. Sucks. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 09:31:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
I'm glad it got a standing ovation. Man, this has turned into such a divisive issue. Sucks. |
If the response at TAM was any indication, it's only divisive to a handful of people (none of whom - to be clear - currently blog at FtB).
And it may suck now, but it's better to have things out in the open so we all get to see who the nasty people are. It'll help speed along the process. And as Tigger the Wing notes:It happened with racism, it’s happening with homophobia and it’s the turn of misogyny to become a liability in ‘polite society’. We are winning. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 18:52:52 [Permalink]
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I'm sorry that these are my first words about this controversy. I need to spend some time on the thread I started. (I had a very nearly total and complete fucking netbook meltdown. I'll explain all about it in the other thread.)
Here's what I have to say about security at TAM. It was there and it was serious. It's true that it wasn't highly publicized. I think a bit more should have been posted on it, but I don't run things. And this aslo doesn't erase erase my dismay at DJ's first comments (and a few after those) that started this ball rolling. In DJ's defense, he was absolutely concerned about security. I know that now. Aside from mistakes that were made, there was a lot of hand wringing over how much should be said for fear that it would be taken wrong. I can't say I agree, but having talked to him I know where he was coming from.
Just so you know, every single staff member, volunteer, TAMBassador and so on were obliged to attend a meeting. It was held at different times to make sure that every single one of us were aware of policy, and what our part was in that policy. To the best of my knowledge, having been a volunteer at the last four TAM's, this was something new. There was a protocol set up in the event of our seeing something that shouldn't be going on, or what to do if someone approached us with a problem. It included making sure that it was taken care of in an appropriate way, just for starters. But more than that, documentation was very high on the list for any incident that we saw or that was reported to us. They weren't fooling around. And just so you know, it was clear that even for those us working on a volunteer basis, we were staff. It was written on our backs and it was on a very large button that we wore.
I'm not going to go into the details of the meeting, because it's my place to do that. But for anyone who thinks that security was lite, or non existant, or left up to the hotel security staff, forget about it. We knew exactly what to do if anything came up.
And if what I think I saw is accurate, and it might not be, the female attendance was far more than 18%. And they all seemed to be having a good time. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 19:02:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Pamela Gay put up a post with the speech she gave at TAM about harassment. It is pretty damn good.
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And yes. Pamela's talk was one of the highlights of the TAM. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 19:13:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
We knew exactly what to do if anything came up. |
Did the non-staff attendees know that? That is, after all, the main purpose to having a policy: to make the convention-goers feel more safe. If they don't know there's a policy, it won't have that effect.| And if what I think I saw is accurate, and it might not be, the female attendance was far more than 18%. And they all seemed to be having a good time. |
What about Surly Amy and the (at least) one other woman reportedly harassed enough to leave early?
Oh, and once TAM started, the female attendance was claimed to be 31 percent. However, since overall attendance was down last year, and the proportion of women was lower, the math works out to female attendance being 45% lower than last year (while male attendance was down only 12%). |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 19:25:49 [Permalink]
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Dave. I don't know anything about Surly Amy leaving this year. It would be nice if she said exactly why she left. As for the percentages, all I can tell you is what I saw. Yes TAM was down by about 400 people or more. But there were something like 1200 people there, and again, I strongly doubt that the main reason for the drop in female attendance due was largely because of this issue. And that goes back to DJ's original mistake.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 19:30:28 [Permalink]
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Dave:
Did the non-staff attendees know that? |
They knew who to go to if they had any questions or complaints. Our freaking badges were big enough to see from a long way away. But still, I can't answer that in full. I don't know. I know who I would have gone to. We were far from invisible. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 19:37:21 [Permalink]
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Let me add that I can only speak from what I saw. I could tell you stories about women who told me that they have never been treated better at any skeptic or freethinking event. That really happened. But it doesn't count as evidence. It's just what I saw, and heard. Personally heard from several attendees who happen to have been women.
I can't help but being somewhat bothered by so much blowback coming from a bunch of people who weren't even there. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 20:00:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Dave. I don't know anything about Surly Amy leaving this year. It would be nice if she said exactly why she left. |
Indeed, it would. Hopefully, she will enlighten us all sometime soon.| As for the percentages, all I can tell you is what I saw. Yes TAM was down by about 400 people or more. But there was something like 1200 people there, and again, I strongly doubt that the main reason for the drop in female attendance due was largely because of this issue. And that goes back to DJ's original mistake. |
Right. Seriously, nobody was/is claiming that the large drop in female attendance is due to discussion of harassment except DJ Grothe. And even now, nobody is claiming that the large drop in female attendance is due to DJ Grothe.
As I said, I've seen maybe a dozen people claim that they will not be attending TAM or supporting the JREF any longer because of what DJ said. That is empirical data which only demonstrates that DJ shot himself in the foot, as far as JREF fundraising goes, to some extent. I'm not making the claim that these people are responsible for any major drop in attendance or fundraising, I'm only making the claim that they exist, and that I have seen not a single instance where anyone has claimed "I wasn't going to go to TAM, but then DJ threw Rebecca Watson under the bus, so now I'm buying a ticket to Vegas!" In other words, given the evidence available, the net effect of Grothe's mistake has been negative to the bottom line of the JREF, which is what Grothe was trying to avoid in the first place. It's an own goal.
Here is another example:I was really excited and looking forward to going to my first TAM this year. I didn’t know about TAM until after it was over last year. The talk of harassment was not a deterrent at all. Like most women, I know that harassment exists and I deal with it. I don’t have the opinion that harassment is worse at skeptic conferences than other sorts of conferences and I didn’t get that impression from anything I’ve read. I attend about 15-20 conferences for work each year that also have high male:female ratios.
However, I decided not to go TAM because of DJ’s statements. I am only speaking for myself but that’s MY reason for not attending. It is because I am angry and disappointed, not because I am afraid. I’ll spend my money elsewhere and there are lots of other conferences I’ve heard about now. If DJ wants to blame “irresponsible messaging” for the drop in TAM registrations, he has only himself to blame. I’m one little nobody but his statements are the sole reason I didn’t go. So that's 13 people that I've happened to see blame DJ Grothe for their not going to TAM this year. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 20:02:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Dave:
Did the non-staff attendees know that? |
They knew who to go to if they had any questions or complaints. Our freaking badges were big enough to see from a long way away. But still, I can't answer that in full. I don't know. I know who I would have gone to. We were far from invisible. |
Did they know they would be believed? The reason that public anti-harassment policies are important is that women who are harassed often don't report it because they don't think that they will be taken seriously. It doesn't matter if they know who to report it to if they think that their reports will fall on deaf ears. Police routinely laugh at victims of harassment and even rape. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 20:03:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I can't help but being somewhat bothered by so much blowback coming from a bunch of people who weren't even there. |
What blowback from which people? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Rebecca Watson Not Appearing at TAM
