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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 07/23/2012 : 20:51:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Even if there are better ways to collect data, I see nothing wrong with asking the question. |
If there are better ways to collect the data that the JREF wants, then asking the question is a waste of time and effort. Just like the TSA gives us "security theater" at airports, the question makes it look like the JREF is doing something worthwhile, when really they aren't. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2012 : 21:11:33 [Permalink]
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Just an average day for the SkepChicks. People making alleged "jokes" about raping them just for being annoying. People suggesting they should set themselves on fire. This crap is what they get on a normal day. TAM was apparently full of special days, in that it's clear from Surly Amy's post that people went well beyond nasty blog posts and tweets to tell her specifically and the SkepChicks in general how little the haters appreciate her efforts at TAM and within the skeptic movement. The sheer amount of in-real-life effort expended at belittling Surly Amy and the SkepChicks is just astounding.
The comments to the above-linked blog post are in turns inspiring and disheartening. A good thing: someone has started a campaign to donate a quarter to Planned Parenthood in response to sexist tweets from SkepChick haters. Probably the most depressing comment came from Pamela Gay:For me, it’s not a matter of getting used to it, but getting numb to it. It’s like a bad odor your nose stops noticing due to overload of chemical receptors. But another comment sums up pretty well where I'm at on this:Some times I get overwhelmed by the attacks that my friends and allies are undergoing. Sometimes I want to just stop reading because, like you, I fear we aren’t moving forward in any real way an I get depressed. Sometimes I just don’t want to think about it any more. But then I realize that I have the luxury of not having to deal with it daily, that I can walk away if I want to, and I realize that means I morally can not walk away because things still need to be done and we need all allies on deck. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2012 : 21:37:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
Even if there are better ways to collect data, I see nothing wrong with asking the question. |
If there are better ways to collect the data that the JREF wants, then asking the question is a waste of time and effort. Just like the TSA gives us "security theater" at airports, the question makes it look like the JREF is doing something worthwhile, when really they aren't.
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Well it's not like they sent you the form. So who are they trying to impress? You are making an unwarranted assumption. I guess with the mistakes that DJ has made, it's safe to assume that he and the JREF aren't really interested in the data. Is that it? Are you sure you want to go out on that limb? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2012 : 22:08:31 [Permalink]
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Excellent post. Inspirational. And as you said, disheartening as well. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2012 : 22:22:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Well it's not like they sent you the form. So who are they trying to impress? |
TAM is a fundraiser, so they're trying to impress people with money who also might be concerned about harassment.| You are making an unwarranted assumption. I guess with the mistakes that DJ has made, it's safe to assume that he and the JREF aren't really interested in the data. Is that it? Are you sure you want to go out on that limb? |
No, I'm sure the JREF are interested in the data. They just appear to be clueless about how to get it.
Again, it really looks like they're trying to do the right thing without admitting that they're trying to do the right thing. A public harassment policy backed by people trained to not make any victims feel worse would have gone a long way towards collecting the data they obviously want without need of a question on an exit survey. But that's exactly what their critics wanted, and Grothe had set up an us-versus-them battle with those critics that he and the JREF apparently couldn't back away from.
So much so that the JREF allowed one of the TAM speakers, some entertainers, one of its Twitter-feed handlers and other attendees to not just cordially disagree with (which would have been fine) but to sometimes openly mock one of TAM's sponsors.
No matter how much I agree with their general goals, I find it difficult to feel sympathy for an organization which has painted itself into a corner but is clearly reluctant to admit that it screwed up. Isn't one of the hallmarks of a "good skeptic" the ability and willingness to say, "I was wrong?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2012 : 22:54:10 [Permalink]
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Dave:
So much so that the JREF allowed one of the TAM speakers, some entertainers, one of its Twitter-feed handlers and other attendees to not just cordially disagree with (which would have been fine) but to sometimes openly mock one of TAM's sponsors. |
It's pretty clear to me that no official from the JREF that I know of approved of any of the above. Paul Provensa, in my opinion, is a dick. Still, I doubt that he submitted his show for approval. He has his fans. His show is a TAM regular. When they found out about the person on the twitter feed, they shut him down. What the hell could they do about HH's shirt? I happen to know that people in high positions did not approve of her shirt. So what do you mean by "allowed?"
Dave:
Isn't one of the hallmarks of a "good skeptic" the ability and willingness to say, "I was wrong?" |
Yes. When and if they realize they are wrong. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2012 : 19:04:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
It's pretty clear to me that no official from the JREF that I know of approved of any of the above. Paul Provensa, in my opinion, is a dick. Still, I doubt that he submitted his show for approval. He has his fans. His show is a TAM regular. When they found out about the person on the twitter feed, they shut him down. What the hell could they do about HH's shirt? I happen to know that people in high positions did not approve of her shirt. So what do you mean by "allowed?" |
What I mean by "allowed" is that the JREF seems to be making it clear that those contributing to an atmosphere hostile enough to drive a sponsor from the convention won't even suffer the smallest of sanctions, like having their con badges taken away for the rest of the weekend.
Meanwhile, it's just been announced that American Atheists will not tolerate this sort of nonsense. The JREF, it seems, will.
And as a consequence, the SkepChicks are moving their sponsorship to a convention other than TAM. It's pretty much the end of a years-long partnership.
What has the JREF gained from all this? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2012 : 07:49:11 [Permalink]
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And the first comment is nothing but ugly.
PZ Myers agrees almost completely with Nugent. I think PZ is wrong about the Nugent's focus on skepticism and/or atheism (because he says a lot about making the effort to combat inequalities, too).
And whenever I see comments that suggest (or outright state) that it's the SkepChicks or PZ or Ophelia who are the ones being divisive and intolerant and "hurting the movement(s)" I get a chuckle. It's as if to advocate tolerance, we are supposed to be tolerant of the intolerable. It's as if we're supposed to say, "we welcome all levels of bigotry."
The real haters are actually a pretty fraction of all skeptics/atheists. We (as social movements advocating skeptical inquiry and/or atheism) do not need them. Not nearly as much as some of them seem to think we do. Would we like for them to continue on in the movement(s) with us? Sure. But if that requires tolerating their sexist/racist/genderist/etc. crappola, then I say we leave them behind. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2012 : 08:59:40 [Permalink]
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Yeah. I was dismayed by first comment. That was the only one there when I posted this. In fact, when I posted the link, even that one wasn't there. The ink was still drying on the page. But way to miss the point, cormac! For some, any good advice will not take, because, and I'll call it some kind of narcissism, because they see Nugent as overtly taking a side against them. (Perhaps he is but not for the reason cormac thinks.) No good deed goes unpunished. The only side I see Nugent taking is a call for rational dialog and if we are going to disagree on some points, don't make it personal and try to make disenting comments with reasoned out arguments and not just a bunch of knee-jerk reactions that are hurtful and unreasoned. I agree that those posting misogynist and hateful messages would be better off left behind too. What can you do with a bigot? Whether skeptic or atheist or both, who needs them?
I like that PZ said this in his closing paragraph:
| But let me say here: Michael Nugent has put up a plea for civil discussion on these matters. Try it. If you comment over there, be polite to the smug reactionaries already commenting; and here on this thread, too, try to avoid being too vicious, as much as you feel the other guys deserve it. Address his suggestions in the same spirit he made them. |
I posted the blog on my facebook page. I'm happy to see that DJ hit "like" on the post. Take it as you will.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2012 : 11:02:14 [Permalink]
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I like this too. PZ is walking the walk. # 166 Takes many of his commenters to task:
You know, I have no problem with everyone ripping into Thunderf00t here — he deserves it, and his recent post credulously citing a source from AVoiceForMen, a known misogyny-riddled hate site, says he’s getting worse. But Michael Nugent has just made the point that some civility would be nice now and then, and I see the way some of you are ripping mercilessly into lilandra, and I see the problem.
Disagree with her, do, and I would, too…but she’s a persuadable moderate who is mostly on our side, but you aren’t acting at all charitably. This is an easy case where persuasion would work, and so far it’s all scorched earth.
Back up a notch. Reserve the flamethrowers for the deserving. |
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2012 : 11:20:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I like this too. PZ is walking the walk. # 166 Takes many of his commenters to task:
You know, I have no problem with everyone ripping into Thunderf00t here — he deserves it, and his recent post credulously citing a source from AVoiceForMen, a known misogyny-riddled hate site, says he’s getting worse. But Michael Nugent has just made the point that some civility would be nice now and then, and I see the way some of you are ripping mercilessly into lilandra, and I see the problem.
Disagree with her, do, and I would, too…but she’s a persuadable moderate who is mostly on our side, but you aren’t acting at all charitably. This is an easy case where persuasion would work, and so far it’s all scorched earth.
Back up a notch. Reserve the flamethrowers for the deserving. |
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That's a class act by PZ. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2012 : 14:58:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Kil
I like this too. PZ is walking the walk. # 166 Takes many of his commenters to task:
You know, I have no problem with everyone ripping into Thunderf00t here — he deserves it, and his recent post credulously citing a source from AVoiceForMen, a known misogyny-riddled hate site, says he’s getting worse. But Michael Nugent has just made the point that some civility would be nice now and then, and I see the way some of you are ripping mercilessly into lilandra, and I see the problem.
Disagree with her, do, and I would, too…but she’s a persuadable moderate who is mostly on our side, but you aren’t acting at all charitably. This is an easy case where persuasion would work, and so far it’s all scorched earth.
Back up a notch. Reserve the flamethrowers for the deserving. |
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That's a class act by PZ.
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I have to tell you though. Reading the comments in that thread is anything but a productive use of time. But then, I stopped reading comments long ago. It's a snake pit. I wanted to see what would happen and now I'm done with it. I can take SFN. I can take the JREF forums. I can take facebook. But I can't really do the comment section in the FtBlogs. I don't have Dave's filtering device. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2012 : 15:24:32 [Permalink]
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I don't normally read the comments at many blogs. The last time we talked about the comments, blog posts has been written about specific comments, but it's good to get the context. And once you start, they're like potato chips. Or a train wreck.
In other news, Dale McGowan, the Executive Director of Foundation Beyond Belief, speaks out against hate directed at women. The President and Chief Executive Officer of CFI, Ronald A. Lindsay, has done so, also. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2012 : 21:28:55 [Permalink]
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Wow, 15 pages..... I'm going to have to sift through this one eventually.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Rebecca Watson Not Appearing at TAM
