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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 :  11:27:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And now Thunderf00t, recent addition to FTBs, has jumped in the fray with a lengthy post of clueless mansplaining. (He's been going back and forth with PZ over the last few days. This is the latest.)

You know, this may be entirely anecdotal, but between him, Russel Blackford, and a few personal acquaintances I know, I'm beginning to believe Australians have a much larger problem with sexism in their society than even America does. So much so that Australian men can't seem to see what's wrong with it.

Edit Or is Thunderf00t British? My accent-detection software may have gotten that one wrong.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/26/2012 12:23:21
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 :  20:53:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Richard Carrier has a wonderful antidote to Thunderf00t's toxic "reasonable arguments."

Two thing struck we reading the comments to both pieces:

1) Some people are claiming the whole anti-harassment policy push is a "power play" by certain people. This seems paranoid at best, but even if it were true, doesn't it make the argument against such policies into nothing more than a whine that the objectors will have less power? Power changes hands all the time, so if you're going to object to things that lessen your power, you'll need to put forth an argument that compels us to believe that you're the best person to have that power, at this time, and not those other people (who usually go at least semi-anonymous in these arguments). I haven't yet seen an argument that details (with evidence!) why it would be a bad thing for everyone if Stephanie Zvan, Jason Thibeault, Ophelia Benson, PZ Myers and/or Rebecca Watson (for a short list of examples) got to call the shots about social policy at skeptic/atheist conventions.

2) The usual anti-policy people aren't showing up in the comments to Carrier's piece, at least not nearly as fast as they have in other places. Carrier, however, has a strong comment policy. This leads me to five possible conclusions:
A) People who would object to Carrier's arguments are self-censoring because they believe that Carrier would just block them on ideological grounds and so it isn't worth the effort to comment (which indicates a moral cowardice and a poisoning of the well)

B) People who usually object to anti-harassment policies admit to themselves that Carrier's arguments are superior, but just can't bring themselves to say so (and since they generally claim to value skepticism and admission of being wrong so highly, this would indicate rank hypocrisy)

C) Carrier is lying about not getting such comments and he's just deleting them (but surely the victims of such draconian measures would say so elsewhere, and provide evidence)

D) There just hasn't been enough time since Carrier wrote the post (unlikely given how quickly other blogs with more lenient commenting policies get swarmed)

E) These folks don't know about Richard Carrier's post (massively unlikely since they seem to follow PZ's blog with a religious fervor, and PZ linked to Carrier's piece in the post that HH linked)
There could, of course, be other possibilities I haven't dreamt up. But right now, I'm leaning towards A being most likely.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 :  21:03:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I meant to say one more thing about Carrier's post and the comments. Carrier comments:
...99.99% of the noise on this subject was entirely caused by opponents and trolls (who said things, often involving lies, sometimes borderline libelous, that could not go unanswered, generating more noise, etc.). Had they never raised a peep, there would have been almost no noise about this at all. Orgs would all have internally discussed and then developed and adopted a policy, their public efforts to attract more women would have included (but not solely consisted of) casual mentions of this fact, some blogs would have been written praising this. And that would have been it. Instead, the opponents of policies made it infinitely worse by pumping the very well that made the problem more visible. And then had the gall to complain about the fact that it’s being discussed so much. Nice...
In other words, the people objecting to anti-harassment policies have fallen victim to the Streisand Effect, arguing (like Thunderf00t) that talking about the problem is scaring women away while hypocritically drawing attention to the subject. Whoops, own goal.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2012 :  11:39:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
American Atheists now has a policy for use at all its events. Not only that, but suggestions for improvement that have been made to them have been vetted and incorporated within a half-hour.

The policy obviously borrows heavily from the OpenSF Code of Conduct. OpenSF is a group for "open, poly or ethically nonmonogamous" people, and so it'd be tough to accuse the authors of being prudes or anti-sex. In fact, the President of American Atheists said in a conference call about their policy that AA wants people to have sex at their conventions.

(Of course, someone has to worry about becoming the victim of a false report of harassment, but the question to ask back is: what happens without a policy? Without a firm policy and staff trained to follow it, a single false complaint could be enough for an over-zealous low-level staff member to throw the wrongly-accused out on his ear, without so much as consulting anyone higher up. The internal activity mandated by the policy for staff/administrators should spell out in detail who does what when and to whom, and who has the decision-making power for possible sanctions. A good anti-harassment policy protects everyone.)

(Oh, and at PZ's place, we've got some guy who thinks that 'maybe' usually means 'yes'. Another complaint is that American Atheists now has a policy which appears on its face to ban offending anyone's religion. But the policy is about protecting people, not their beliefs. And a long complaint from someone who clearly doesn't grok that harassment is in the eyes of the harassee, and that not all complaints are going to get someone ejected - hopefully very, very few will be asked to leave, ever.)

Someone else mentioned that the CFI policy is going to be posted in a couple/few days. No wonder I was having such a hard time finding it.

Thibeault also mentions that the TAM 2012 FAQ now includes this:
How does JREF handle safety concerns?

The Amazing Meeting, while a private event, is held at the South Point Hotel Casino and Spa, which is open to the public. The safety of our attendees and speakers is a priority. If an attendee encounters a problem within the conference area, they should report the situation to TAM staff or hotel security. JREF has also engaged an independent consultant on these issues, with decades of experience handling security, boundary and safety concerns, to assist us in dealing with any matters should they arise at the event.
A little skimpy by comparison.

On a different note, check out the 2011 Guide to Getting Laid at Dragon*Con.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2012 :  13:38:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The CFI has posted its policy. And also a press release. And Ronald Lindsay has posted about the reasoning behind the policy.

Found this news at Butterflies and Wheels.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9688 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2012 :  03:13:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote

On a different note, check out the 2011 Guide to Getting Laid at Dragon*Con.

It's really cool. Funny yet serious.


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2012 :  10:25:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thunderf00t thinks that FreeThoughtBlogs should be criticized for "The disproportionate amount of attention it gives to sexism compared to other issues." Ironic, isn't it, that Thunderf00t has written five of his six posts about sexism? And that his posts prompt other FtBers to write more about sexism?

Between June 21 (when Thunderf00t joined FtB) and June 30 (the day I saw that post of his), there were 655 posts on FtB, total. 96 of them were related to sexism or harassment policies, or almost 15%. Is that "disproportionate?" If we remove Thunderf00t's own posts and the reactions to them, the proportion drops to a little over 12%. Thunderf00t, therefore, is directly or indirectly responsible for 20% of the sexism/harassment posts on FtB.

The top ten sexism/harassment bloggers at FtB, 6/21 through 6/30:
Thunderf00t           80%
Christina Rad         67%
Ophelia Benson        50%
Black Skeptics        50%
Greta Christina       48%
Stephanie Zvan        43%
Al Stefanelli         33%
Deacon Duncon         33%
Jason Thibeault       33%
Richard Carrier       33%
-1000 for hypocrisy, Thundef00t.

Edited to add that during the period examined, 25 of the 38 FtBers wrote at least one post related to sexism/harassment. Only two of them perhaps would have avoided writing on the subject if it hadn't been for Thunderf00t, and one of those two is Thundef00t.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2012 :  13:36:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well... It's sort of a catch 22. Once TF criticized others, they shot back. So his time has been spent defending his claims. That would tend to skew the results of your sampling, Dave. I suggest checking back in a year to check the totals. Your sampling is too small.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2012 :  17:43:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil
I suggest checking back in a year to check the totals.
Too late.
As many of you are no doubt aware, there’s been a lot of strife in this community lately. Some of it has been in public, some of it was in private and some of it may well go from being private to public as a result of all of this. So let me give you the news and clear the air:

We are parting company with two of our bloggers: Thunderf00t and Greg Laden. We wish them both the best but, unfortunately, their behavior towards other members of the community has made it impossible to keep them as part of our network. This is not a matter of a disagreement or difference of opinion, but of behavior that we cannot condone or support.

"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2012 :  20:10:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Too late.

Huh...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2012 :  21:38:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Well... It's sort of a catch 22. Once TF criticized others, they shot back. So his time has been spent defending his claims. That would tend to skew the results of your sampling, Dave. I suggest checking back in a year to check the totals. Your sampling is too small.
I'd agree, except the point was that Thunderf00t was making a mockery of himself by posting about nothing but the subject that he claimed wasn't that important (excluding his introductory post, of course).

It's important to note that his very last post (not included in my analysis because it was on July 1) was to ridicule SkepChickCon's newly-released harassment policy. It wasn't him responding to criticism.

It's also important to note that in the same time period, Stephanie Zvan made eight posts not related to harassment; Ophelia Benson made 24 unrelated posts; PZ Myers made 73 unrelated posts, and Ed Brayton made 94 posts on subjects unrelated to sexism or harassment. Thunderf00t skewed the sample all by himself by remaining silent on all other subjects than the one that he declared other people spent a disproportionate amount of time on, while those other people posted more than he did on other subjects.

Only eleven of the thirty-eight FtB bloggers made fewer posts than Thunderf00t in those ten days, putting him at like the 29th percentile for posting frequency, but he was at the 82nd percentile in the subject he chose to post about based on number of posts, or 99.9th percentile based on proportion.

And the fact that it was his choice is important. Nobody forced him to get into a public pissing match with PZ Myers and Greta Christina (and then today, Rebecca Watson et al).

Oh, and limiting the sample to those ten calendar days was doing Thundef00t a favor in the comparisons. The only other reasonable standard would have been to compare all the bloggers' entire blogging history on FtB, which would have been a disaster for Thunderf00t's argument. Sexism and harassment have been the topic du jour recently. Including times when that subject hasn't been so heavily public would have made Thunderf00t look even more hypocritical. There have been times, for example, when Ophelia Benson was much more focused on Kazez and Stangroom's nonsense, or on the Catholics' treatment of children, than on sexism and harassment. Or take the recent SSA blogathon, during which Jen McCreight made 48 non-harassment related posts in 24 hours. Justin Griffith made one related post out of six total in the ten-day period, but if I had included everything since FtB went online, that'd be one out of 340 posts, instead. Making the sample size small was the charitable thing to do for Thunderf00t.

Thunderf00t made an absolute fool of himself in short order on FtB. Maybe he could have redeemed himself given another 355 days, but given that he added a harassment-related video to his YouTube channel just the other day, it seems that his peculiar take on this particular subject is his new hobby horse, to be beaten to death and then some.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2012 :  21:58:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's bizarre about Laden, by the way. I saw in the comments on the post by the target of his wrath that the two of them had worked things out over the phone, but Justin Griffith has apparently seen fit to memory-hole all 200+ comments to that post sometime in the last couple of hours because some assholes were insisting on still being assholes. Saving for display the comments between Laden and him would have shown - at least a little - how even after tempers get lost, they can be regained without lasting, bitter damage. Oh, well.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Norway
1273 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2012 :  02:38:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a policy they should implement. "Thou shalt not covet".

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2012 :  04:11:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Here's a policy they should implement. "Thou shalt not covet".
Except for the fact that the convention organizers are generally sex-positive and anti-totalitarian, that might work.

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 07/12/2012 :  09:38:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Whew, I just read through all of this. Glad I started this thread - so much thoughtful discussion here. I tend to agree most of what Dave has said on the issue, especially about how important an issue it is, though I tend to agree with Kil about the reason why the # of women at TAM this year has gone back down to the norm. Harassment is a problem, but I don't think it has a huge impact on whether women come or don't come to a conference because most women fall into two camps: the first that just takes the potential for harassment for granted and tries not to worry about it, and the second which avoids environments where there is an even slightly increased change of harassment like the plague.

Kil wrote:
This issue is turning people who are paragons of skepticism into gibbering idiots.
Yes, it does! This is such a significant observation! You bringing it up makes me realize that it is probably one of the reasons why I have before Watson never wanted to bring up this issue. Why do they turn into gibbering idiots? This issue of internal sexism and sexual harassment in the freethought movement/community has so many dimensions and subtleties. I'm glad it's all being discussed out in the open even though it is drawing the trolls and assholes out in droves. Hopefully all this provocation is a catalyst for meaningful, long-term change in the culture of this movement.

Even though there are not a lot of people contributing on this forum, the overall quality of discussion is so high. Thanks.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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