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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 06/11/2012 : 23:09:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by HalfMooner
One of the criticisms I've heard (and frankly share) of moderate Christian churches and congregations is that most of them remain silent in the face of the outrageous preaching and actions of hate of their fundamentalist coreligionists. I'd like to see the pastor asked if he feels that his church has a responsibility to address the abuses of those fundamentalists. After all, when one says "I am a Christian" these days, those who hear that tend to assume the person is a fundamentalist.
Hypothetically, if I knew of a band of people who called themselves "Humanists," but actually spent most of their energy killing dogs, cats and wildlife, I would be appalled and consider it my responsibility to 1) Let people know by word and example what "real" Humanism is, and 2) Stop those idiots from hurting animals.
I'd ask the pastor: Don't moderate Christians have an analogous duty, regarding the fundamentalist hate churches? Does shared faith with the fundies give moderate Christians an advantage in trying to dissuade the fundies from some of their more evil rhetoric and acts? Certainly we secular humanists find it almost impossible to civilly sit down with fundies. The fundies don't want to be seen talking like adults with us, because they prefer that their congregations think of us as Satan-possessed Muslim-Communists.
I don't personally see how the moderates can sit down with the extremists with any hope of progress, but maybe pastor has better ideas than I do. And if they can't, can they at least publicly condemn the haters' actions?
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I think you are not being very fair here. There are preachers every week out there that condemn certain violent or extreme actions. There are websites like sharper iron that promote fundamentalism as it was intended through discussion and example. Christian conservatives like John MacArthur, John Piper, Phil Johnson, Paul washer to prosperity preachers like Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, Paula White to emergent/liberal Christians like Rob Bell, Tony Campolo, NT Wright have all publically condemned acts of violence against others. |
Which would be a better rebuttal had I said all Christians were silent on religious abuses. I implied that most are silent, which I think is correct. BTW, the "Prosperity Gospel" preachers you site are themselves creepier than Hell! "Homosexuality-is-sin Joel Osteen! Daughter-beating money-grubber Creflo Dollar! Paula refused-to-give-finacial-information-to-Senate-commission White! Perhaps you mixed up a list of the good guys with the bad guys?| Can you give us some advice on what more we can do? |
As I wrote, not much. I'm less than optimistic, but concede those closer to the situation may have better ideas.I'll let others address your other points. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 00:43:10 [Permalink]
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Marfular Unit*, I forgot to mention: Thanks for your talk. Well said.
*an endearment. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 06:41:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Which would be a better rebuttal had I said all Christians were silent on religious abuses. I implied that most are silent, which I think is correct. BTW, the "Prosperity Gospel" preachers you site are themselves creepier than Hell! "Homosexuality-is-sin Joel Osteen! Daughter-beating money-grubber Creflo Dollar! Paula refused-to-give-finacial-information-to-Senate-commission White! Perhaps you mixed up a list of the good guys with the bad guys? |
I was trying to show that accross the entire spectrum of so called christianity in America prominent people are condemning violent acts. I was not endorsing anybody. I still disagree that most do not condemn these acts. Most sure do but what are we supposed to do about it?
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 07:00:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
]I was trying to show that accross the entire spectrum of so called christianity in America prominent people are condemning violent acts. I was not endorsing anybody. I still disagree that most do not condemn these acts. Most sure do but what are we supposed to do about it? |
What are you supposed to do about it? I can make several suggestions.
What would Dr. King do were he living? Take a public stand to condemn the bigoted excesses. Use news, the Internet, post billboards, carry picket signs, shout slogans. Get arrested in peaceful demonstrations, if necessary. Hell, combine with secularists when you agree on a tactical agenda. Get your righteous indignation going!
You point out that there are many prominent Christians coming out against violent acts. I do not say you are entirely wrong, but I don't hear their voices. If these people exist in numbers, they must shout! They must, unequivocally and visibly, let everyone know that the "Christians" who are hogging the limelight and monopolizing that name do not represent them. The bigots are making all Christians look like schmucks, and that's a problem that Christians who aren't schmucks should address, lest they be taken for schmucks themselves. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/12/2012 07:06:54 |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 14:04:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Convinced
]I was trying to show that accross the entire spectrum of so called christianity in America prominent people are condemning violent acts. I was not endorsing anybody. I still disagree that most do not condemn these acts. Most sure do but what are we supposed to do about it? |
What are you supposed to do about it? I can make several suggestions.
What would Dr. King do were he living? Take a public stand to condemn the bigoted excesses. Use news, the Internet, post billboards, carry picket signs, shout slogans. Get arrested in peaceful demonstrations, if necessary. Hell, combine with secularists when you agree on a tactical agenda. Get your righteous indignation going! |
All good ideas except for the getting arrested part, that is unbiblical.
Can you explain to me how this will help stop religious violence? How do we christians stop someone from killing an abortion doctor? I don't think holding signs and putting up billboards or holding demonstrations will change peoples mind on that. It sounds like you want us to run a PR campaign so we just look better but not actually accomplish anything.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 14:06:07 [Permalink]
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| Yes all prosperity preachers are false prophets. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 14:23:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Can you explain to me how this will help stop religious violence? How do we christians stop someone from killing an abortion doctor? I don't think holding signs and putting up billboards or holding demonstrations will change peoples mind on that. It sounds like you want us to run a PR campaign so we just look better but not actually accomplish anything. |
So all the Civil Rights activists were just wasting their time back in the 1950s and 60s?
If you seriously want to reduce American Christian violence, you need to ensure that an overwhelmingly huge majority of American Christians will loudly condemn violence by their purported brothers and sisters. Right now, American self-identified Christians feel okay with (and even justified in) telling people they don't like the horrible things that they think should happen to sinners. They do this not only in Facebook and blog comments, but in man-on-the-street interviews.
The fact that they feel comfortable saying such things leads to a climate in which the real loonies can feel comfortable in doing such things. Get your people to tone down the rhetoric, and it will marginalize those willing to act on it, and even shame some of them into inaction. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 15:42:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Convinced
]I was trying to show that accross the entire spectrum of so called christianity in America prominent people are condemning violent acts. I was not endorsing anybody. I still disagree that most do not condemn these acts. Most sure do but what are we supposed to do about it? |
What are you supposed to do about it? I can make several suggestions.
What would Dr. King do were he living? Take a public stand to condemn the bigoted excesses. Use news, the Internet, post billboards, carry picket signs, shout slogans. Get arrested in peaceful demonstrations, if necessary. Hell, combine with secularists when you agree on a tactical agenda. Get your righteous indignation going! |
All good ideas except for the getting arrested part, that is unbiblical. |
Uh, Paul? ... Jesus?| Can you explain to me how this will help stop religious violence? How do we christians stop someone from killing an abortion doctor? I don't think holding signs and putting up billboards or holding demonstrations will change peoples mind on that. It sounds like you want us to run a PR campaign so we just look better but not actually accomplish anything. |
Dave already posted what I would say. Your option is to do nothing much. That's just what I think most "moderate" Christians are doing, aside from wonderful exceptions.
Changing what's acceptable to do or say is something people have always been doing as history moves along. I was part of the Civil Rights movement when I was in high school in 1962 and 1963. I met, spoke with, and shook the hand of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. The effect of the nonviolent actions that San Diego CORE took part in was to integrate the employment policy of Bank of America in California. We were taunted, threatened, called niggers and nigger-lovers, and had boiling human feces poured upon us from the upper stories of the bank building we picketed. Yet we won, and countless black people have benefited ever since.
I never regretted our actions at the time, though I had doubts then that they would be effective. One general rule of thumb: If you do what you KNOW is right, you will thank yourself forever after. This is another time when people need to think and do what is righteous. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/12/2012 15:46:22 |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2012 : 07:50:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Convinced
All good ideas except for the getting arrested part, that is unbiblical. |
Uh, Paul? ... Jesus? |
Paul and Jesus were falesly accused and executed. Romans 13 lines out a christian's relationship to the government. We are to be good citizens, follow all laws that do not conflict with a command from God and pay our taxes no matter what. That does not preclude using the governmental system to affect change. Being arrested for protesting in a way that breaks a law would be wrong.
| Dave already posted what I would say. Your option is to do nothing much. That's just what I think most "moderate" Christians are doing, aside from wonderful exceptions. |
As a christian that wants to do good works I have to make a choice. I have limited money and time to do things. If I spend my time and money helping the homeless then I guess I am not doing much to stop human trafficking. Both are worth my time and money but I cannot do both. Shouldn't we leave that up to each individual person to decide? To say because I am not spending my time and money stopping religious violence means I don't really care is misleading.
Also most moderate christians are not saved in America, but that is a different topic.
Changing what's acceptable to do or say is something people have always been doing as history moves along. I was part of the Civil Rights movement when I was in high school in 1962 and 1963. I met, spoke with, and shook the hand of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. The effect of the nonviolent actions that San Diego CORE took part in was to integrate the employment policy of Bank of America in California. We were taunted, threatened, called niggers and nigger-lovers, and had boiling human feces poured upon us from the upper stories of the bank building we picketed. Yet we won, and countless black people have benefited ever since.
I never regretted our actions at the time, though I had doubts then that they would be effective. One general rule of thumb: If you do what you KNOW is right, you will thank yourself forever after. This is another time when people need to think and do what is righteous.
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I commend you for doing that but while you were doing that you were not helping starving people in Africa. You made a choice as to what cause to spend your time and money. Each christian has the same choice to make. Spending our resources elsewhere does not mean we condone the violence. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2012 : 07:53:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Can you explain to me how this will help stop religious violence? How do we christians stop someone from killing an abortion doctor? I don't think holding signs and putting up billboards or holding demonstrations will change peoples mind on that. It sounds like you want us to run a PR campaign so we just look better but not actually accomplish anything. |
So all the Civil Rights activists were just wasting their time back in the 1950s and 60s? |
Thats ridiculous.
| Right now, American self-identified Christians feel okay with (and even justified in) telling people they don't like the horrible things that they think should happen to sinners. |
I don't understand this sentence. Can you explain more.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2012 : 20:19:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Can you explain to me how this will help stop religious violence? How do we christians stop someone from killing an abortion doctor? I don't think holding signs and putting up billboards or holding demonstrations will change peoples mind on that. It sounds like you want us to run a PR campaign so we just look better but not actually accomplish anything. |
So all the Civil Rights activists were just wasting their time back in the 1950s and 60s? |
Thats ridiculous. |
I completely agree that it's ridiculous to suggest that holding signs, putting up billboards and holding demonstrations is equivalent to running "a PR campaign so we just look better but not actually accomplish anything," specifically because the Civil Rights movement embraced such actions and actually accomplished things.| Right now, American self-identified Christians feel okay with (and even justified in) telling people they don't like the horrible things that they think should happen to sinners. |
I don't understand this sentence. Can you explain more. |
Absolutely.
Earlier this year, a 17-year-old atheist girl who decided to stand up for the First Amendment was told that she should be beaten. And that her home should be burned down. And that Satan would rape her in Hell. And hundreds, if not thousands, of other nasty things. By people who were "defending" a prayer mural. This is just one example among many of how Christians think they should behave in public, because the vast majority of Christians offer tacit agreement with these horrible sentiments through their silence.
This is only amplified when pastors and other Christian leaders take to the pulpit and state that gays should be arrested, or sent to concentration camps and left to starve, or executed, and Christians do not rise up en masse and shame those pastors into silence.
Military leaders who claim that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are indeed crusades to bring Christianity to the heathen. Parents who withhold medical attention from their children because they think prayer alone will heal. Child-abusing priests and the bureaucracy that protects them from the law. Widely-known doctrine that relegates women to nothing more than baby factories and servants to men. Public condemnations of cheap, life-saving technologies. Dominionist political lies intended to help enact a theocratic government. Reporting scientists to the Department of Homeland Security over minor scientific disputes. Campaigns to ban books from libraries. Etc. Etc.
The vile people promoting or actually doing these things - self-identified Christians all - become representatives of Christianity by being almost the only voices heard from your religion. These awful brothers and sisters of yours, by being vocal while most of the rest of you are silent (in fact, the former often cow the latter into silence with threats both implied and explicit), make themselves the public face of Christianity to the other five billion inhabitants of this planet. It should be considered to be a PR nightmare.
Also:| As a christian that wants to do good works I have to make a choice. I have limited money and time to do things. If I spend my time and money helping the homeless then I guess I am not doing much to stop human trafficking. Both are worth my time and money but I cannot do both. Shouldn't we leave that up to each individual person to decide? To say because I am not spending my time and money stopping religious violence means I don't really care is misleading. |
How brazenly disingenuous of you. First you asked, "...what are we supposed to do about it?" and then you hand-waved away a solution that is historically sound by suggesting that it would be nothing more than "a PR campaign so we just look better but not actually accomplish anything." After getting criticized for your obvious cynicism, you claim that you don't have enough time or money to help?
Nobody said that you "don't really care." We understand that you need to set your own priorities, and we don't fault you for that. What I personally will fault you for is your clear statements that those efforts that you don't prioritize aren't worth making in the first place. Perhaps that's how you justify your own choices internally, but it rather cruelly minimizes and dismisses the choices that others make when they are different from yours.| Spending our resources elsewhere does not mean we condone the violence. |
No, but it allows those who do condone the violence to control the public microphones.
Which is more important? Feeding a homeless person or shaming a would-be Christian executioner into inaction? While there are millions of secularists and atheists who are willing and able to help out at soup kitchens and homeless shelters, their efforts against violent Christians will not be persuasive because they will be seen as "the enemy."
Think about it this way, too: your sending food to Africa is expected of you. It isn't any sort of extraordinary behavior, and so will make the news as often as the proverbial "dog bites man" story. I certainly won't pat you on the head for doing what you're supposed to do. But start trying to shout down the imbeciles who (right or wrong) adopt your religion, and you'll get noticed because that is extraordinary. Some of your co-religionists will notice, and they'll find the courage to also speak out and get noticed. And so on.
You give food away? I say, "whatever." You start a web site devoted to condemning the current atmosphere that encourages violent Christian rhetoric and acts? I'd say "bravo!" and do what I could to get that site a wider audience. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 10:39:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Earlier this year, a 17-year-old atheist girl who decided to stand up for the First Amendment was told that she should be beaten. And that her home should be burned down. And that Satan would rape her in Hell. And hundreds, if not thousands, of other nasty things. By people who were "defending" a prayer mural. This is just one example among many of how Christians think they should behave in public, because the vast majority of Christians offer tacit agreement with these horrible sentiments through their silence.
This is only amplified when pastors and other Christian leaders take to the pulpit and state that gays should be arrested, or sent to concentration camps and left to starve, or executed, and Christians do not rise up en masse and shame those pastors into silence. |
Your right. I have thought the same about Muslims that do not condemn their religious violence but have not thought as much about Christianity.
| The vile people promoting or actually doing these things - self-identified Christians all - become representatives of Christianity by being almost the only voices heard from your religion. These awful brothers and sisters of yours, by being vocal while most of the rest of you are silent (in fact, the former often cow the latter into silence with threats both implied and explicit), make themselves the public face of Christianity to the other five billion inhabitants of this planet. It should be considered to be a PR nightmare. |
I can see this. I have browsed around the internet and have found many people, pastors, websites etc. speak out against pastor Worley for example. The sad problem we have is our fractured church. We need to figure out how to bring us all together on this issue. Because it seems a lot of small voices speaking out individually is not changing anything. I am not saying it can’t be done but realistically it won’t be easy.
| How brazenly disingenuous of you. First you asked, "...what are we supposed to do about it?" and then you hand-waved away a solution that is historically sound by suggesting that it would be nothing more than "a PR campaign so we just look better but not actually accomplish anything." After getting criticized for your obvious cynicism, you claim that you don't have enough time or money to help? |
I never said I did not have enough time or money to do this but that I would have to stop doing other things to do this and I would have to change my opinion about my priorities.
Nobody said that you "don't really care." We understand that you need to set your own priorities, and we don't fault you for that. What I personally will fault you for is your clear statements that those efforts that you don't prioritize aren't worth making in the first place. Perhaps that's how you justify your own choices internally, but it rather cruelly minimizes and dismisses the choices that others make when they are different from yours.| Spending our resources elsewhere does not mean we condone the violence. |
No, but it allows those who do condone the violence to control the public microphones. |
I have thought about what you are saying here most of the day. I realized that I do think that others efforts and priorities are worthwhile but not as worthwhile as my priorities and that is wrong.
| Which is more important? Feeding a homeless person or shaming a would-be Christian executioner into inaction? While there are millions of secularists and atheists who are willing and able to help out at soup kitchens and homeless shelters, their efforts against violent Christians will not be persuasive because they will be seen as "the enemy." |
This is a very compelling point.
Think about it this way, too: your sending food to Africa is expected of you. It isn't any sort of extraordinary behavior, and so will make the news as often as the proverbial "dog bites man" story. I certainly won't pat you on the head for doing what you're supposed to do. But start trying to shout down the imbeciles who (right or wrong) adopt your religion, and you'll get noticed because that is extraordinary. Some of your co-religionists will notice, and they'll find the courage to also speak out and get noticed. And so on.
You give food away? I say, "whatever." You start a web site devoted to condemning the current atmosphere that encourages violent Christian rhetoric and acts? I'd say "bravo!" and do what I could to get that site a wider audience. |
Thanks for offering your advice from someone outside Christianity. These are thoughts we don’t hear or think about very often in the church.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2012 : 12:35:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
The sad problem we have is our fractured church. We need to figure out how to bring us all together on this issue. Because it seems a lot of small voices speaking out individually is not changing anything. |
Well, no, a lot of small voices can change things. But it's gotta be like 60%-plus of all available small voices, not 10%.
The fractured church isn't the problem (even though it is highly fractured: I remember a religious census from over ten years ago that pointed out that within the U.S. alone, there were more than 1,500 distinct Christian sects. See also Emo Philips on Religion). Back in the days when the Roman Catholic Church was the only Christian game in town, it busied itself with scaring or killing off its opposition, both external (crusades) and internal (inquisitions). Martin Luther may have sparked the Reformation, but if nobody else (no other small voices) had picked up his ideas and run with them, you would most likely have found yourself doing those strange Catholic aerobics every week.| I am not saying it can’t be done but realistically it won’t be easy. |
No argument there.| I have thought about what you are saying here most of the day. I realized that I do think that others efforts and priorities are worthwhile but not as worthwhile as my priorities and that is wrong. |
I used to be that way, too, until I realized that so long as there isn't a single solution to the world's problems, multiple methods and varying priorities are required to avoid allowing issues to go unaddressed at all. Even minor attention to an issue is better than no attention.| Thanks for offering your advice from someone outside Christianity. |
You're welcome. Thanks for participating here.| These are thoughts we don’t hear or think about very often in the church. |
And that is probably the main problem. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Christian/Humanist Mtg to Share Perspectives
