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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 07/12/2012 : 22:36:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Actually, it was probably just kids who wouldn't really know a liberal from an anarchist. Not in any deep sense.
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They misspelled “Athiesm”. So at worst, these kids are just "athiests," and none of our concern. 
Seriously, though, Hermant Mehta has the right idea, in working with the local pastor to select and donate to a local charity. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/12/2012 22:37:01 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 06:47:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
There's no way you can stop irrational people from saying irrational things until you take away their rights to free speech.
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Indeed. "People" obviously cannot function in a democracy (just watch at USA where corporations are buying off the lazy-minded) so let's do away with that also.
And I proclaim that the best individual to rule the oviously needed government of enlightened despotism is - me.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 07:00:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Dave W.
Not necessarily liberals, but the odds are good.
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Based on the graffiti they left, I'd say a likelier bet is anarchists. |
Not being able to even spell atheism correctly, and the Anarchist-A, makes me believe it's theistically raised teenagers (without knowledge of the historical context of the "A") who are rebelling against their parents and the church they are forced to attend.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 13:18:06 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by HalfMoonerThey misspelled “Athiesm”. So at worst, these kids are just "athiests," and none of our concern. |
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"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2012 : 12:26:34 [Permalink]
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That could prove costly, denying Chick-Fil-A business opportunities like that can't be legal...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2012 : 20:47:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
It's not just illegal, it's unconstitutional.
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Yeah. It's one thing to stage a protest, but a mayor can't just tell a legal business "no, you can't be here because of some social policy your CEP endorses". |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2012 : 00:10:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
It's not just illegal, it's unconstitutional.
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Worse in my mind, any such local Chik-fil-A ban would give the homophobic Religious Right real instances of "persecution" (however minor and "legalistic" they may be compared to the horrific abuse that gays have long endured). The RR would greatly savor having this issue to cry about. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2012 : 08:58:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
The RR would greatly savor having this issue to cry about. |
It's too late for that. Just having people who publicly state that they want to persecute Christians is as good as having people who actually do so, in the minds of the loons. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2012 : 22:54:23 [Permalink]
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Here's a Facebook comment I just left in response to a few people minimizing the Chick-Fil-A mess with false equivalency and/or saying "it's just a matter of opinion":As a liberal, I became interested in this whole Chick-Fil-A mess because I heard about the liberal mayors being unconstitutional bullies by attempting to squash free expression with underhanded building-permit tricks. I am an advocate of cleaning one's own house before worrying about the other guys, and found the situation appalling. I was under the impression that the whole thing began with something that Dan Cathy had said, and thought that the various mayoral statements were massive overreactions, even if they'd been on the right side of the law.
However, this isn't about something Dan Cathy said. It's much bigger than that. I *wish* that the root problems were merely a difference of opinions, a strong ideology and/or a manufactroversy by politicians, because then it could be more-easily dismissed. But it is instead a matter of activism. Speech has consequences, and activist speech seeks to create change. And Chick-Fil-A's charitable group, WinShape, has been a very strong anti-gay activist organization for years.
In 2009, a small group of Americans led a workshop in Uganda which was a forum for malicious lies about LGBT people. As a direct result, a bill was introduced into Uganda's parliament which could have made homosexual activity or being HIV-positive death penalty crimes, later dropped to life imprisonment after international outrage. It was meant to protect "families," but would have imprisoned those with stable, monogamous, loving relationships with people who happened to be of the same sex.
In 2010, a resolution was put before members of the U.S. Congress which condemned Uganda's proposed legislation. A group called the Family Research Council spent a bunch of money lobbying to have congresspeople REJECT the resolution. Also, the FRC's president, Tony Perkins, is on record claiming that pedophilia is "a homosexual problem," which is an vicious lie, and he has also said that right here in the U.S., we should be criminalizing "gay behavior." For these and other reasons, the Southern Poverty Law Center has branded the FRC a "hate group."
Chick-Fil-A, through WinShape, has donated money to the FRC. There can be no mistake about the FRC's advocacy. They are proud of it, and don't try to hide it. And that's not the only blatantly anti-gay group that Chick-Fil-A has donated to, but just one example among several. In 2010 alone, WinShape gave almost two million dollars towards opposing LGBT rights.
So, by "eating mor chikin," people are helping to promote throwing gay people in jail, just for whom they choose to kiss.
Not just in Africa, but right here at home, as well.
And this isn't a "six degrees of separation" scenario, either. This isn't a case where Dan Cathy's cousin's plumber made a donation in 1992. No, Chick-Fil-A was just one step away from having their own employees on paid trips to oppose the condemnation of the atrocious Ugandan legislation. Nor can any reasonable argument be made that maybe WinShape just didn't know what sort of horrid groups they were giving money to.
I'm all for free expression. And giving money is a form of free expression. And giving money to advocacy groups is itself a form of advocacy.
And advocacy has consequences. And the consequences of Chick-Fil-A's advocacy, using the profits from people who just want a good piece of chicken for lunch, are that LGBT people will be harmed and that stable, loving, non-traditional families with children will be split apart by bigoted government agents empowered to do so.
It is, of course, unfortunate that most Chick-Fil-A patrons (and even most fans of the chain) aren't going to know about this stuff. It's not widely known. I'd like to think that many or most of the people lined up on Wednesday would have left if someone explained the restaurant's advocacy to them, and how this isn't a simple matter of some liberal thugs trying to silence a dissenting opinion. But we'll never know that.
However, like other groups opposed to equality and other civil rights, Chick-Fil-A's advocacy will eventually fail. Like those opposed to the abolition of slavery; like those opposed to voting rights for women; like those in favor of anti-miscegenation laws, Chick-Fil-A and others opposed to treating LGBT people like they would any other human being will eventually find themselves on the losing side of the battle. A marginal group fit to be ridiculed for its bigotry. Examples of progress towards this goal abound. For one, just a little earlier this year, approval of gay marriage in the U.S. surpassed the halfway mark for the first time. And luckily, Uganda's "Kill the Gays" bill seems (as of 2011) to be at a dead end.
So the money Chick-Fil-A has spent in advocacy of odious positions is, at best, wasted. How many hungry families could have been fed for two million dollars in 2010? How many improvements could have been made to foster-family systems, hospitals, orphanages, etc.?
But that's the best-case scenario. The reality is that Chick-Fil-A's advocacy actively harms LGBT people here and now. If even that harm is nothing more than true equality being a few more years away (and it's not so benign), it's a real harm to real people. Every sandwich and waffle fry that Chick-Fil-A sells is like a little tiny dagger being plunged into the heart of living, breathing non-traditional family.
As I said above, I'm all for free speech. But that includes the right to criticize people who advocate for policies and laws that will do demonstrable harm to other people. This isn't merely a difference of opinion or a manufactroversy. It's not merely about a corporation trying to prevent same-sex couples from marrying. It's about a company actively and purposefully seeking to criminalize being gay, and that's dangerous speech that needs to be countered loudly, publicly and continuously...
...with more speech. Not by illegally banning the offenders from building in your cities. If enough regular people someday find Chick-Fil-A's stance disgusting, they'll go out of business without having to resort to unconstitutional practices. Counter-protesting Mike Huckabee's Wednesday activities could be a good start, like with, for example, Friday's planned same-sex "kiss-in" demonstrations at Chick-Fil-A restaurants. |
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2012 : 23:10:31 [Permalink]
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| Great piece, Dave. Well researched and finely balanced, as usual. I hope it is widely read. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/02/2012 23:11:59 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2012 : 07:19:24 [Permalink]
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Dave:
In 2010, a resolution was put before members of the U.S. Congress which condemned Uganda's proposed legislation. A group called the Family Research Council spent a bunch of money lobbying to have congresspeople REJECT the resolution. |
I had a problem with copying on Snopes for some reason. I suggest going to this link and scroll down to the last paragraph. The FRC says it did not try to kill HR 1064 nor did they support the bill, but only tried to change some of the language in the bill that they felt was untrue.
Snopes: Chic Fil A
I consider Snopes a pretty good source.
I hate to say it, but looking around, I can't find any verification that the FRC tried to kill the bill. They certainly lobbied against it as written. What worries me is that while I despise the FRC, their actual intent might not have been to kill the bill but to amend it because they didn't like some of the language. In other words, it's possible that they didn't support the death penalty or even the jailing of gays. And the idea that they did support those things has become a part of the progressive echo chamber.
I should also note that members of the FRC have made statements that does not exactly support their version of things:
| In February 2010, Peter Sprigg, the Family Research Council’s “Senior Fellow for Policy Studies” has said that he fully supports criminalizing homosexuality in the United States. In 2008, he quipped that he wanted to see all gay people deported. He later apologized for that remark. |
Box Turtle Bulletin
I'd be much more comfortable with some sources that I trust that actually shows what their intent was in their lobbying effort. Even the FRC statements are confused. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2012 : 08:40:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I hate to say it, but looking around, I can't find any verification that the FRC tried to kill the bill. They certainly lobbied against it as written. What worries me is that while I despise the FRC, their actual intent wasn't to kill the bill but to amend it because they didn't like some of the language. In other words, it's possible that they didn't support the death penalty or even the jailing of gays. And that they did support those things has become a part of the progressive echo chamber. |
Don't know why you'd hate to state the truth. So they just tried to amend the language on HR 1064. However, the FRC's Tony Perkins is still virulently anti-gay. The FRC advocates against equality using lies and misrepresentations. And here is video of Peter Sprigg (an FRC senior fellow) stating, in no uncertain terms, that people should be jailed for gay acts. And the fact that the FRC didn't support the "Kill the Gays" bill doesn't erase the facts laid out by the SPLC that shows the FRC to be absolutely repugnant.
Edited to add: so it's still true that patronizing Chick-Fil-A helps advocate for real, demonstrable harm to LGBT people and families. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Equal criticism
