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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 07/18/2012 : 14:26:51
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Do any of you Skeptics pray or have prayed? What is the difference between a spell an a prayer? The deities? Is prayer just suggestion to the mind?
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2012 : 14:49:31 [Permalink]
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I prayed when I was young because I was raised Catholic. I no longer do so.
Some prayer probably is very similar to spell casting, especially the type beseeching a deity to intervene and cause some specific result. Spells differ in that there's usually a lot more useless rigmarole to them, like drawing symbols or requiring the plea to be made at a specific time or location, etc. But essentially intercessory prayer is a type of spell in that it's an incantation spoken to a supernatural agent with the purpose of invoking a desired outcome. And it should go without saying, but they both enjoy the same success rate, which is no better than chance.
But prayer can also be nothing more that repeating a specific set of words over and over, making it more similar to meditating with a mantra. Praying the rosary, for example. Then there's prayer as a kind of loose internal monologue, which is basically just talking to yourself. Prayer can mean many things to many people.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/18/2012 15:26:27 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 07:28:04 [Permalink]
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I had a little more than 10 years in the Pentecostal church, and I pretty much agree with everything H. Humbert had to say.
With a slight modifier: The success rate of prayer.
Sometimes people overhear someone else's prayer, and use that information in a conducting way making it more likely than pure chance for the prayer to be answered.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 08:45:30 [Permalink]
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| People who are observed to be talking when there is nobody nearby to listen to them mostly fall into three overlapping categories: People who are psychotic, people who are praying, and people using Bluetooth headsets to converse over cell phones. Scholars of abnormal psychology are divided over which of these three phenomena is most psychopathological, but praying and Bluetooth use are generally considered the most serious. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 08:58:05 [Permalink]
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As a kid growing up in a Christian church, I prayed.
My understanding about spells and prayer would lead me to say that they're not the same thing. Spells-- and let me confess that this is sort of an intuitive understanding, and not something I've really researched-- involve ritual such as specific recitation and gesturing. There is also often some sort of material component (yes, I'm channeling my inner D&D nerd here). But most importantly, I'm not sure that spells (or, at least, not all spells) don't necessarily require an appeal to a god. That is, if you assume that spells are real, then there is also an assumption that something calls "magic" exists in the world. You control this magic by performing various rituals and a god needn't be involved.
I could be wrong-- perhaps I'm out of touch with the spell-casting crowd. But my Protestant up-bringing certainly didn't include the sort of ritual (chanting, gesturing, material components) when praying. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 10:22:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
As a kid growing up in a Christian church, I prayed.
My understanding about spells and prayer would lead me to say that they're not the same thing. Spells-- and let me confess that this is sort of an intuitive understanding, and not something I've really researched-- involve ritual such as specific recitation and gesturing. There is also often some sort of material component (yes, I'm channeling my inner D&D nerd here). But most importantly, I'm not sure that spells (or, at least, not all spells) don't necessarily require an appeal to a god. That is, if you assume that spells are real, then there is also an assumption that something calls "magic" exists in the world. You control this magic by performing various rituals and a god needn't be involved.
I could be wrong-- perhaps I'm out of touch with the spell-casting crowd. But my Protestant up-bringing certainly didn't include the sort of ritual (chanting[our father-hail mary-amen and the actual prayer, thought or spoken], gesturing[Kneeling, head bowed, palms together, raising the roof], material components [Bible, altar, rosary, cross, white-Jesus picture]) when praying.
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Bolding mine,
While the Protestants are famed for their casting off of most of those things they still have their own (v, s, m)*
So on the topic, no they are clearly different concepts, with the same effect, nothing.
*I see your inner D&D nerd and raise you...my d100! |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 11:03:08 [Permalink]
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When I was a Catholic I Kept praying for a bicycle once, which I never got.I finally gave up.
So I stole one and prayed for forgiveness! 
(old joke) |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 11:23:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
As a kid growing up in a Christian church, I prayed.
My understanding about spells and prayer would lead me to say that they're not the same thing. Spells-- and let me confess that this is sort of an intuitive understanding, and not something I've really researched-- involve ritual such as specific recitation and gesturing. There is also often some sort of material component (yes, I'm channeling my inner D&D nerd here). But most importantly, I'm not sure that spells (or, at least, not all spells) don't necessarily require an appeal to a god. That is, if you assume that spells are real, then there is also an assumption that something calls "magic" exists in the world. You control this magic by performing various rituals and a god needn't be involved.
I could be wrong-- perhaps I'm out of touch with the spell-casting crowd. But my Protestant up-bringing certainly didn't include the sort of ritual (chanting[our father-hail mary-amen and the actual prayer, thought or spoken], gesturing[Kneeling, head bowed, palms together, raising the roof], material components [Bible, altar, rosary, cross, white-Jesus picture]) when praying.
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Bolding mine,
While the Protestants are famed for their casting off of most of those things they still have their own (v, s, m)*
So on the topic, no they are clearly different concepts, with the same effect, nothing.
*I see your inner D&D nerd and raise you...my d100!
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Fair enough, and I thought about that. But there's a difference. If I want to pray to ask for some help in a difficult personal struggle, I would perhaps kneel or bow my head (or both) and maybe recite some quote from the Bible. But I'd probably do the same thing if I were to pray about the health of my grandmother, or to ask for rain during a drought, or whatever. Moreover, what I do when I pray may not be what my mother does, or what the guy down the street does. And finally, at least in a modern Christian setting, prayer often includes comments that are along the lines of "do as You see fit, Lord, to help me." And while there's an implicit "(and I hope what You see fit is exactly what I'm asking for)" in that, there is still that sentiment.
Conversely, when I think of someone trying to cast a spell, I imagine that each spell has its own particular set of rituals (e.g. one spell requires some concoction of ingredients must be burned, a very specific set of words must be said a certain number of times, it must be done at a certain time of day, or in a specific spot, etc., etc., while another spell wants you to boil a different concoction of ingredients and recite a different phrase, etc., etc.). And those rituals are the same whether its you casting the spell, or your mother, or the guy down the street. Moreover, a spell is usually cast for a very specific thing with a very specific expected result. I can't imagine a witch (be it a MacBeth-style witch of the Middle Ages or some modern "white" witch) casting a spell and expecting whatever result "the fates" deem best.
In other words, for conventional Christian prayer, there's no specific set of rules on how to do it-- at least, this seems to be the case from the Protestant point of view. Or, at best, there is a minimal ritual that is more or less a symbolic gesture of respect born out of medieval protocols (e.g. bowing one's head like they'd have done to a king). On the other hand, spells elaborate ritual that are specific for the type of spell being cast. And while a prayer is a specific invocation of help to a specific god (e.g. Yahweh and/or his kid Jesus), a spell is more an attempt to use a generic supernatural force to manipulate reality for a specific goal. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 07/19/2012 11:26:50 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 07/19/2012 : 11:26:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
When I was a Catholic I Kept praying for a bicycle once, which I never got.I finally gave up.
So I stole one and prayed for forgiveness!
(old joke)
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Emo Philips - Religion |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 11:33:49 [Permalink]
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As to whether or not spells and praying works it's really a moot point. For those involved there is a perceived benefit, there's the feeling that one is doing something to effect the future rather than doing nothing which is helpful psychologically. Its psychologically purging, I'd say. For them to appear to actually produce results is just the icing on the cake.
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There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 11:39:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
As a kid growing up in a Christian church, I prayed.
My understanding about spells and prayer would lead me to say that they're not the same thing. Spells-- and let me confess that this is sort of an intuitive understanding, and not something I've really researched-- involve ritual such as specific recitation and gesturing. There is also often some sort of material component (yes, I'm channeling my inner D&D nerd here). But most importantly, I'm not sure that spells (or, at least, not all spells) don't necessarily require an appeal to a god. That is, if you assume that spells are real, then there is also an assumption that something calls "magic" exists in the world. You control this magic by performing various rituals and a god needn't be involved.
I could be wrong-- perhaps I'm out of touch with the spell-casting crowd. But my Protestant up-bringing certainly didn't include the sort of ritual (chanting[our father-hail mary-amen and the actual prayer, thought or spoken], gesturing[Kneeling, head bowed, palms together, raising the roof], material components [Bible, altar, rosary, cross, white-Jesus picture]) when praying.
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Bolding mine,
While the Protestants are famed for their casting off of most of those things they still have their own (v, s, m)*
So on the topic, no they are clearly different concepts, with the same effect, nothing.
*I see your inner D&D nerd and raise you...my d100!
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Fair enough, and I thought about that. But there's a difference. If I want to pray to ask for some help in a difficult personal struggle, I would perhaps kneel or bow my head (or both) and maybe recite some quote from the Bible. But I'd probably do the same thing if I were to pray about the health of my grandmother, or to ask for rain during a drought, or whatever. Moreover, what I do when I pray may not be what my mother does, or what the guy down the street does. And finally, at least in a modern Christian setting, prayer often includes comments that are along the lines of "do as You see fit, Lord, to help me." And while there's an implicit "(and I hope what You see fit is exactly what I'm asking for)" in that, there is still that sentiment.
Conversely, when I think of someone trying to cast a spell, I imagine that each spell has its own particular set of rituals (e.g. one spell requires some concoction of ingredients must be burned, a very specific set of words must be said a certain number of times, it must be done at a certain time of day, or in a specific spot, etc., etc., while another spell wants you to boil a different concoction of ingredients and recite a different phrase, etc., etc.). And those rituals are the same whether its you casting the spell, or your mother, or the guy down the street. Moreover, a spell is usually cast for a very specific thing with a very specific expected result. I can't imagine a witch (be it a MacBeth-style witch of the Middle Ages or some modern "white" witch) casting a spell and expecting whatever result "the fates" deem best.
In other words, for conventional Christian prayer, there's no specific set of rules on how to do it-- at least, this seems to be the case from the Protestant point of view. Or, at best, there is a minimal ritual that is more or less a symbolic gesture of respect born out of medieval protocols (e.g. bowing one's head like they'd have done to a king). On the other hand, spells elaborate ritual that are specific for the type of spell being cast. And while a prayer is a specific invocation of help to a specific god (e.g. Yahweh and/or his kid Jesus), a spell is more an attempt to use a generic supernatural force to manipulate reality for a specific goal.
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I totally get what you are saying and I agree, I was just nitpicking your D&D. Those things would be considered components in D&D, it helps if you think of Priest spells instead of Wizard. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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AnthroGeek
New Member
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 11:47:42 [Permalink]
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Spell casting follows more of a ritual that has the caster manipulating their environment for a desired outcome: catching fish, plentiful harvest, having the neighbor's dog stop shitting on my lawn, warding off evil spirits and so on.
In prayer the power to change comes from an outside intelligent agency and not those doing the praying. Essentially you are outsourcing your spell casting to a higher power.
That is not to say there is no overlapping. A Catholic priest blessing holy water or turning wine to blood/bread to flesh seems to feel - and likewise with exorcism - much more spell like than I am sure most Catholics are comfortable admitting. |
A series of fun one-liners about various pseudoscientific claims and, even better, a concise description of the scientific method - Ken Feder on Skeptic Friends Network from "Frauds, Myths and Mysteries" |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 14:46:12 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by BigPapaSmurfI totally get what you are saying and I agree, I was just nitpicking your D&D. Those things would be considered components in D&D, it helps if you think of Priest spells instead of Wizard. |
Ah yes. Priest spells. I never played a cleric when I was growing up and D&D-ing, and sadly that's in part to my Christian up-bringing making me wary about the whole "other gods" thing (this was the 80's, when there was a lot of "D&D is Satanic" crap flying around). Also, if you can't cast Meteor Swarm, what good are you? |
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AnthroGeek
New Member
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 16:00:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
| Originally posted by BigPapaSmurfI totally get what you are saying and I agree, I was just nitpicking your D&D. Those things would be considered components in D&D, it helps if you think of Priest spells instead of Wizard. |
Ah yes. Priest spells. I never played a cleric when I was growing up and D&D-ing, and sadly that's in part to my Christian up-bringing making me wary about the whole "other gods" thing (this was the 80's, when there was a lot of "D&D is Satanic" crap flying around). Also, if you can't cast Meteor Swarm, what good are you?
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Flame Strike? True Resurrection? Geas/Quest? Holy Word? Hell if you are a druid you got Creeping Doom! Never underestimate the power of a cleric in the party. |
A series of fun one-liners about various pseudoscientific claims and, even better, a concise description of the scientific method - Ken Feder on Skeptic Friends Network from "Frauds, Myths and Mysteries" |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 18:42:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by AnthroGeek
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
| Originally posted by BigPapaSmurfI totally get what you are saying and I agree, I was just nitpicking your D&D. Those things would be considered components in D&D, it helps if you think of Priest spells instead of Wizard. |
Ah yes. Priest spells. I never played a cleric when I was growing up and D&D-ing, and sadly that's in part to my Christian up-bringing making me wary about the whole "other gods" thing (this was the 80's, when there was a lot of "D&D is Satanic" crap flying around). Also, if you can't cast Meteor Swarm, what good are you?
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Flame Strike? True Resurrection? Geas/Quest? Holy Word? Hell if you are a druid you got Creeping Doom! Never underestimate the power of a cleric in the party. |
True. I will admit that I underestimate the power of the cleric (I'm talking 2e here; I have some 3e stuff, but don't play it. And all my 1e stuff is in a box somewhere at my parents' house... I hope.). Holy Word was great for sure. As were a number of other good spells. But at higher levels, you couldn't compete magic-wise with the magic-user. (Understanding that a cleric's ability to use magic armor and weapons, and their higher HP, etc., compensates-- the beauty of D&D which other games still haven't figured out.) |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 20:22:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
As to whether or not spells and praying works it's really a moot point. For those involved there is a perceived benefit, there's the feeling that one is doing something to effect the future rather than doing nothing which is helpful psychologically. Its psychologically purging, I'd say. For them to appear to actually produce results is just the icing on the cake.
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So what's the point of testing treatments against placebos?  |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Prayer
