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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
 Posted - 01/11/2013 : 16:14:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Of course it doesn't assume that, please tell me a legitimate situation where a clip larger than 10 rounds is needed. What sort of hunter needs to shoot more than 10 rounds at a time? |
Varmint hunting. Pest control. Usually against prarie dogs, gophers, pigeons, ground squirrels, etc. |
Yes, but you don't need to shoot continuously, at least certainly not for squirrels (I'm less familiar with hunting the others, but I suspect it's similar). With squirrels you take maybe a couple or 3 shots, they run off if you miss, and you need to look for more -- during which time, there's essentially unlimited time to put in a new clip or even reload one with rounds, as we're talking about something that takes a couple minutes -- at least thats about how long it takes me to fill my 10-round .22 clip from empty, and if I were only putting in 2-3 rounds, that's no time in the context of my search for more game.
In the context of being in the stress of a close quarters scenario without knowledge of where everyone is, it's a window where one could be disarmed.
| It also allows you to gauge how the weapon will handle the stress of operation. It is also useful in target shooting. There is a secondary reason. That being the ability of the populace to rise up against a tyrannical government should the need arise. |
It appears the latter could be the only real reason, the former is only needed for the latter, or for some sort of situation where the government has lost the ability to keep order.
| So..... we are left to depending on the police for response at this point. Significantly increases your time part of the factor. |
I have no idea why this response is supposed to be relevant to the quoted content. The police response is no less needed whether people have large magazines or not. It's not as if the ubiquity of large magazines would make it more possible for someone to defend themselves in close quarters or at all affect their need or lack of need for police response.
| You basically ignored the key part of what you quoted there: |
Because the "speed of shot" argument is a distraction. |
Potentially higher speed of shot
While the risk of misfeeding is higher with large clips, they doesn't jam most of the time.
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But it does increase with the rate of fire. |
And it's still nothing like a sure thing, meaning a decent (more likely good) probability that it doesn't.
And ability to shoot more varmints (as detailed above) without the need to do a lengthy reload. Under the classification that 10+ rounds makes something an assault weapon, the .22 long rifle varmint gun I had growing up was an assault weapon because it held 15.
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So when someone is shooting a group of civilians in close quarters, reloading takes no time, but it's a lengthy process when shooting varmints? Time is far less pressing in that situation... |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 01/11/2013 16:15:41 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 07:24:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
And defense of freedoms from a tyrannical government. |
Seems that the last time this worked was when the populace had pretty much the exact same weapons as the tyrannical government, and the tyrannical government could only resupply its troops via a weeks-long boat trip. But our current court system doesn't seem to think that the Second Amendment applies to tanks, cruise missiles and attack helicopters, and you'd be fighting against that tyrannical government on its home turf.
If the hypothetical tyrannical government has decided to use the Constitution for toilet paper and decided to ban your weapons already, you'd no longer have a legal right to them, anyway. And in other perhaps-similar situations, like Afghanistan v. USSR or Vietnam, the rebels had tons of outside help, supplying arms that I'm sure they didn't have a legal right to own. Hell, even the colonists got help from other countries in their fight against the British.
In other words, I think the "defense of freedoms from a tyrannical government" argument is no longer based on realistic premises. It may have been, in the 18th century, but not any more. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2013 : 06:49:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
VD, what the AR-15 lacks in bullet size it more than makes up in range, accuracy and bullet speed. I would much rather face down a 50cal tommy gun than a 22cal AR-15.
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So..... It is an excellent hunting rifle. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/14/2013 : 07:02:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Of course it doesn't assume that, please tell me a legitimate situation where a clip larger than 10 rounds is needed. What sort of hunter needs to shoot more than 10 rounds at a time? |
Varmint hunting. Pest control. Usually against prarie dogs, gophers, pigeons, ground squirrels, etc. |
Yes, but you don't need to shoot continuously, at least certainly not for squirrels (I'm less familiar with hunting the others, but I suspect it's similar). With squirrels you take maybe a couple or 3 shots, they run off if you miss, and you need to look for more -- during which time, there's essentially unlimited time to put in a new clip or even reload one with rounds, as we're talking about something that takes a couple minutes -- at least thats about how long it takes me to fill my 10-round .22 clip from empty, and if I were only putting in 2-3 rounds, that's no time in the context of my search for more game.
In the context of being in the stress of a close quarters scenario without knowledge of where everyone is, it's a window where one could be disarmed.
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You haven't varmit hunted in the country. You have to sit very quietly to get some of them. You usually want to reduce the time that you are sitting quietly, so reloading is not something that you want to do often. In the case of rat shooting, you may get off more than 10 shots because they aren't the smartest critters and do not run off for very long.
| It also allows you to gauge how the weapon will handle the stress of operation. It is also useful in target shooting. There is a secondary reason. That being the ability of the populace to rise up against a tyrannical government should the need arise. |
It appears the latter could be the only real reason, the former is only needed for the latter, or for some sort of situation where the government has lost the ability to keep order.
| So..... we are left to depending on the police for response at this point. Significantly increases your time part of the factor. |
I have no idea why this response is supposed to be relevant to the quoted content. The police response is no less needed whether people have large magazines or not. It's not as if the ubiquity of large magazines would make it more possible for someone to defend themselves in close quarters or at all affect their need or lack of need for police response.
| You basically ignored the key part of what you quoted there: |
Because the "speed of shot" argument is a distraction. |
Potentially higher speed of shot
While the risk of misfeeding is higher with large clips, they doesn't jam most of the time.
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But it does increase with the rate of fire. |
And it's still nothing like a sure thing, meaning a decent (more likely good) probability that it doesn't.
And ability to shoot more varmints (as detailed above) without the need to do a lengthy reload. Under the classification that 10+ rounds makes something an assault weapon, the .22 long rifle varmint gun I had growing up was an assault weapon because it held 15.
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So when someone is shooting a group of civilians in close quarters, reloading takes no time, but it's a lengthy process when shooting varmints? Time is far less pressing in that situation...
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The varmit gun I had was not clip fed. You had to remove a tube from under the muzzle and slide the rounds in one by one which had to be done carefully to ensure the round did not tumble.
Whose assertion is that reloading takes no time while shooting people?
Not mine.
Also, the assumption that punishing the vast majority of responsible gun owners will reduce gun crime is absurd. I am not seeing any sort of argument here that convinces me we need more gun control laws. We have plenty of them. Criminals continue to ignore them and the Brady's respond by demanding that we disarm in front of the criminals. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Predictably, the gun control debate heats up
