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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 08/14/2012 : 08:08:05 [Permalink]
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| Not looking to score points. Only looking for som answers to certain phenomena. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2012 : 08:43:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
99% of ghost phenomena occur in places with tragic pasts. Most of your poltergeist cases are girls in the stage of puberty. Put documentaded cases together and you can see the similarities. Somehow human emotion has an effect. And why is it this that only certain minds can interput this effect.And oly certain girls can produce the phenomena. |
No, they don't. Most of them occur in places where there is no history of tradgedy although the definition of "tradgedy" often changes to "a one time occurrence that was somewhat sad".
so with this data propose a hypothesis. How can we measure human emotion and the effct on the environmeny?
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One would have to be able to identify what constitutes an emotion and how it's presence can be accurately identified. Then they would have to identify whatever distance that phenomenon can be transmitted (electrical fields in the brain making magnetic fields).
One thing I definetly find in flaws of skeptics and these ghost hunters is there inabiity to stay longer than a day or a few hours. People think they could come and control the phenomena. I would love for Randi to stay in a haunted place for a year and see what he comes up with.
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Why does anyone need to do your homework for you? Why does a skeptic need to prove out a subject for which there is no empirical evidence?
What did we need to prove or disprove the existence of bad humors within the blood that had to be released? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2012 : 10:55:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
Not looking to score points. Only looking for som answers to certain phenomena. |
You're not going to get answers by dismissing the best tool we've got available to find answers. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2012 : 12:25:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
the discovery of telepathy or telekinesis would blow centuries of accumulated scientific dogma sky high. What could be more thrilling! |
The truth is pretty thrilling. Knowledge is pretty thrilling. Comprehending and understanding how reality operates is extremely thrilling. Why are you only thrilled by fictions? Why do you not see the wonder in the world as it is? I feel sad for you, Storm, as I do for anyone who cannot deal with reality on its own terms. You should learn how to accept facts with dignity.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2012 : 22:04:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Machi4velli
I think by extraordinary we should mean it in a sense of how different it is from our current understanding of the natural world, which has nothing to do with the fact that people have tried to perpetrate hoaxes.
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I think by extraordinary evidence, the way I understand it, is that it has to be equal to the claim to support the claim. If a claim is extraordinary, the evidence to support it will also have to be extraordinary for the claim to be supported. And that means equal to the claim.
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Agreed, but does the perpetration of hoaxes on the topic make the claim any more extraordinary?
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I think that after both the Piltdown Man hoax, and after the Pons-Fleischmann cold fusion claims (a maybe-hoax), the bar was raised for evidence in their fields of science. Caution, careful analysis, and disregard for the "authority" of claimants, are things that science has had to learn repeatedly. Certainly the bar for both cold fusion claims and hominid fossil analysis became much stricter after those two fakes were exposed.
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Well, seems sensible looked at this way, but I sort of see it as a failure to uphold the right bar in the past.
My thoughts were more with more controlled, experimental science which can usually be a bit more precisely measured (I don't think Wakefield changed much in evaluating medicines), but I was probably taking a bit too limited a view. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 08/14/2012 22:05:36 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2012 : 10:17:12 [Permalink]
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Well H. don't feel to sad for me. I think I can handle reality very well. And Valiant How do you know ghostly phenomena occur outside of sad situations? You investigate ghosts? I know you do magick but ghosts? And how do you know this? Experience? Do tell.
Reality on its own terms is that ghostly phenomena happens and we do not know the cause. We like to say fraud, psychosis, etc. but that is not all the answers. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2012 : 12:02:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
Reality on its own terms is that ghostly phenomena happens and we do not know the cause. We like to say fraud, psychosis, etc. but that is not all the answers.
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There are very reasonable scientific explanations for what causes people to see what looks like ghosts. We don't actually like to say it's all fraud and psychosis, though some of the reported cases are probably due to that. Mostly it's about how our brains work and how we naturally misperceive things, which I went into here. I even included a link to an article by group that does paranormal research. And you ignored the whole thing. If you want scientific explanations, why do you constantly ignore them?
You can't seem to take the blinders off. You will not accept anything that doesn't support your ghosts are real hypothesis as being valid, no matter how much explanatory power the scientific explanation has.
I really don't see how that differs from any religious dogma that puts the cart before the horse. This is how it is, they say, so any other explanation must be wrong. That's dogma. That's how creationists work. That's how crackpots work.
I bet you didn't even read the article I posted, Storm. If you were really interested in ghostly phenomena, you would pursue all of the information out there, not just the stuff that supports what you think is true.
So here you are on a skeptic site, that is tied to science, and imploring us to ignore skepticism and science, unless it's the science of your whacky hypothesis, which doesn't exist, when plausible answers are out there. Why would we go look for the most extraordinary answer that you cooked up to support your admitted beliefe? Why will you not consider other explanations?
The problem isn't that we are being closed minded. The problem is that you are.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2012 : 13:58:03 [Permalink]
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Cough cough Bullshit.... Read the link... Sounds cool..interesting.. did not think the shadow on the stairs was a ghost..just looked like a shadow. I am not one to think I see faces in things i can't see clearly..never did.. the auditory things I used to hear were footsteps in my house in one room and one room only. They were not creaking of wood. I have a very scientific mind and I do not beleive immedietly if I see something out of the ordinary it is a ghost or para normal or a...a.. xenonormal? never seen things out of the corner of my eye.. or did a rapid head movement that made me think it was a ghost.. definetly smoked and did some rapid head movements but they were only head rushes.. not ghostly phenomena.
Kil...my friend i have done much...much research..did many investigations...for years...took many things into consideration. When summed up my investigations point to human emotion and its absorption into the environment only to be replayed in the minds of a sensative.
I do not beleive ghosts are souls of the dead who have not gone to the light.
lets face it Kil science is not interested in Ghosts. Your determined they are not real I am determined they are. i have experienced the phenomena.
ya know a little hocus pocus... a little intelligent design and who knows what can happen |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2012 : 14:11:34 [Permalink]
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Storm:
Your determined they are not real I am determined they are. i have experienced the phenomena. |
And that's your mistake. I'm not determined that they are not real, but you ARE determined that they are. And that is why you have a closed mind.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2012 : 14:13:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
When summed up my investigations point to human emotion and its absorption into the environment only to be replayed in the minds of a sensative. |
Perhaps then it would be best if you posted your research here. How do you conduct a typical investigation? What exactly do you test for? What are your controls? How did you make the determination there is a link between hauntings and human emotion and how did you rule out other factors?
| I have a very scientific mind ... |
I think we should be the judge of that. Just because you aren't entirely credulous that doesn't necessarily mean you think like a scientist.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/18/2012 14:14:03 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2012 : 05:57:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
Well H. don't feel to sad for me. I think I can handle reality very well. And Valiant How do you know ghostly phenomena occur outside of sad situations? You investigate ghosts? I know you do magick but ghosts? And how do you know this? Experience? Do tell.
Reality on its own terms is that ghostly phenomena happens and we do not know the cause. We like to say fraud, psychosis, etc. but that is not all the answers.
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Because I have spoken to ghost hunters here and have some of my own experiences. I have also researched the subject and spoken to friends who had experiences as well. Authors like Holtzer, Price, and others which delineate phenomenon such as smells, full body apparitions, poltergeist activities, etc.
However, your original post referred to "tragic" not the much lesser degree of "sad". You may not move the goalposts in to suit your immediate needs.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2012 : 12:36:23 [Permalink]
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I did not realize there were any goal posts at all. I am deinetly not trying to score points. Just a discussion on certain phenomena. Sad, tragic,... really no difference. And i keep asking you Valiant what experiences have you had?
Now we cannot exactly include Harry Price in sosme credible stuff. If I am not mistaken he had some mix up with The Borley Rectory investigation. Fraud or Duplications. I have read Some of Hans Holzers stuff and he talks of his investigations... but does not come to some conclusion.
Have you read Myers book Human Personality and its Survival? He believed spirits occupied different space. His collegues Gurney Podomore believed they were hallucinations...but not hallucinations as skeptics would think. Have any of you read these peoples work?
Kil I am determined there are ghosts..yes but I am determined they are not conscious souls of dead people. They are left over energy, atoms...etc |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2012 : 13:30:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
I did not realize there were any goal posts at all. I am deinetly not trying to score points. Just a discussion on certain phenomena. Sad, tragic,... really no difference. And i keep asking you Valiant what experiences have you had?
Now we cannot exactly include Harry Price in sosme credible stuff. If I am not mistaken he had some mix up with The Borley Rectory investigation. Fraud or Duplications. I have read Some of Hans Holzers stuff and he talks of his investigations... but does not come to some conclusion.
Have you read Myers book Human Personality and its Survival? He believed spirits occupied different space. His collegues Gurney Podomore believed they were hallucinations...but not hallucinations as skeptics would think. Have any of you read these peoples work?
Kil I am determined there are ghosts..yes but I am determined they are not conscious souls of dead people. They are left over energy, atoms...etc
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Goal posts. Tragic and sad are two very different things.
A 98 year old person dying of old age is sad.
A school bus full of kids in a firey crash that kills most of them is tragic.
The experiences I have had are rather lengthy. I have not investigated them fully either at the time or afterwards.
1) In the 150 year old farmhouse I grew up in, I would occassionally smell cookies being baked when there was no such activity going on. Indeed there were no cookies in the house.
2) Several "motion caught out of the corner of my eye" stuff
3) 1200 watt Altman spotlight turned on and hit the stage dead center at my college theater. I rushed up the stairs with the only other person in the building. Booth where the spotlight resided was locked and the spotlight not even plugged in.
4) Full body apparition, mid day in good viewing position. Could see the postings on the bulletin board behind her. Appartition was clothed in 1920's period dress. Play was The Trojan Women. Definately not set in the 1920's.
5) After 9 PM in the theater, tools would disappear off of the stage and end up in the shop which would close and lock itself.
6) Balls of light within the theater which would appear, move around, and then disappear.
These are anectdotes. No investigation was done at the time or since to validate what they were. This is not evidence that has been vetted or investigated. As such, it is suspect. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2012 : 13:59:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
Kil I am determined there are ghosts..yes but I am determined they are not conscious souls of dead people. They are left over energy, atoms...etc |
We understand energy pretty well. So let's take energy and link it up with what we know about it already, a perfect opportunity to try to differentiate this sort of energy. I'll suppose "left over" energy is energy existing in a person when they die.
I'm not a physicist by any stretch and have limited understanding, but here's an attempt... We know energy would ordinarily dissipate and become disorganized from a closed system (like a human body) when the power source is gone (which is one of the best scientific propositions we have with wide applicability), and so, someone would need to demonstrate that energy from a human body somehow differentiates itself from the norm, allowing the energy to stay organized long-term in the form of a ghost. Without this, we have no reason to suppose energy has anything to do with ghosts.
I think the "left over" atoms can be explained away similarly (I don't know anything about that though), leaving us with the left over "etc"... |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2012 : 14:34:21 [Permalink]
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Wow full body apparitions...I wish I could see them... No such luck. Even if I try to imagine it or even call on them through spellcasting.. Just does not happen to me. My sisiter still lives in the house where we grew up. As I have said before it was haunted
my sister has seen full body apparaitions. All in the same room as where I experienced auditory phenomena.
I am not asking anyone to do my homework for me, just looking for feed back. I am not a genius by any means...so I look for other peoples input. Somebody like yourself who has experienced such things should be more open to my suggestions or hypothesis. Not looking for points, goals posts.
Sure tragic and sad can at times be differentbut I am sure you get my meaning.
And your thoughts on your theatre hauntings. All in your Mind? You made it up?hallucinations. Perhaps you have the gift to see ghosts. |
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Poltergeist phenomena
