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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 08/10/2012 : 08:38:08
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Hat tip to Jerry Coyne at Why Evolution is True for this.
The Council for Secular Humanism has a well-researched article on the many ways all of us, believers or not, are subsidizing religions: Research Report: How Secular Humanists (and Everyone Else) Subsidize Religion in the United States
Ryan T. Cragun, Stephanie Yeager, and Desmond Vega
The home in the photo (above) is the $1.75 million mansion of the Reverend Randy White, the former head pastor of Without Walls International Church in Tampa, Florida. While some people may be bothered by the fact that there are pastors who live in multimillion dollar homes, this is old news to most. But here is what should bother you about these expensive homes: You are helping to pay for them! You pay for them indirectly, the same way local, state, and federal governments in the United States subsidize religion—to the tune of about $71 billion every year.
. . .
. . . |
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/10/2012 08:42:33
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2012 : 11:03:47 [Permalink]
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| I can see it both ways. Definitely the faith based initiatives should be done away with, they seem unconstitutional to me. I can also see churches paying property taxes, sales taxes and income taxes on income that is not gifts/contributions. Maybe there is a middle ground here, like taxing property and income above a certain amount, although what political candidate would support this? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2012 : 11:31:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I can see it both ways. Definitely the faith based initiatives should be done away with, they seem unconstitutional to me. I can also see churches paying property taxes, sales taxes and income taxes on income that is not gifts/contributions. Maybe there is a middle ground here, like taxing property and income above a certain amount, although what political candidate would support this?
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Probably if there's to be any reform at all, it will be slow and incremental, starting with such items as you mention. But for even that to start, will require a great deal of educating people about the present system that gives billions to religions. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2012 : 20:12:34 [Permalink]
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| And those people are the ones who crow about how it's religious people who give more to charity than secularists do. Meanwhile, they've been draining public coffers at that obscene rate? |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2012 : 21:18:07 [Permalink]
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| Well, you get so much more out of those 71 billion dollar annual subsidies than you do out of the 2.5 billion dollars total spent on the Mars Science Laboratory. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2012 : 21:59:20 [Permalink]
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| Does the study count all taxes that would be paid if all the current churches were in existence and were required to pay? I suspect some would go out of business and there would exist fewer churches, which would reduce the actual income that would be generated. (It would still be an obscene amount of money.) |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2012 : 22:48:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Does the study count all taxes that would be paid if all the current churches were in existence and were required to pay? I suspect some would go out of business and there would exist fewer churches, which would reduce the actual income that would be generated. (It would still be an obscene amount of money.)
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That's a good point. A very likely thing to happen in the absence of these subsidies. But not really a hypothetical that the study could quantify. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2012 : 17:30:19 [Permalink]
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Here's an article mentioning some other implicit subsidies received by the Catholic Church from American taxpayers in the form of cheap debt:
http://www.economist.com/node/21560536
The taxpayer as good Samaritan
Growing financial pressures have encouraged the church to replace donations from the faithful with debt. According to figures from the Municipal Securities Rulemaking Board over the past decade, state and local authorities have issued municipal bonds for the benefit of at least 50 dioceses in almost 30 states to pay for the expansion and renovation of facilities that would previously have been largely paid for through donations. Overall church muni debt has increased by an estimated 80% over that period. At least 736 bond issues are currently outstanding.
California is the biggest borrower. Although funding for religious groups is prohibited under the state’s constitution, a series of court rulings has opened the door to bond issues. Catholic groups there have raised at least $12 billion through muni bonds over the past decade. Of that, some $9 billion went to hospitals. In one case, in San Jose, the money went to buy chancery offices for the bishop.
The dioceses back their bonds with letters of credit from banks. Among the most active guarantors are Allied Irish Banks (AIB), US Bancorp and Wells Fargo. None of the banks was prepared to discuss the financial terms of these contracts.
Muni bonds are generally tax-free for investors, so the cost of borrowing is lower than it would be for a taxable investment. In other words, the church enjoys a subsidy more commonly associated with local governments and public-sector projects. If the church has issued more debt in part to meet the financial strains caused by the scandals, then the American taxpayer has indirectly helped mitigate the church’s losses from its settlements. Taxpayers may end up on the hook for other costs, too. For example, settlement of the hundreds of possible abuse cases in New York might cause the closure of Catholic schools across the city. |
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"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 08/19/2012 19:03:04 |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2012 : 11:02:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Does the study count all taxes that would be paid if all the current churches were in existence and were required to pay? I suspect some would go out of business and there would exist fewer churches, which would reduce the actual income that would be generated. (It would still be an obscene amount of money.)
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You can't force churches to pay taxes while other 501c3 organizations remain tax exempt. They are not tax exempt because they are religious organizations. They are tax exempt because they meet the requirements of a 501c3. I don't think you can include this as a way the government subsidizes religion. It is subsidizing charity. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2012 : 11:37:43 [Permalink]
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| If the churches would stop butting into politics, what you'd say would have a point. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2012 : 12:30:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
If the churches would stop butting into politics, what you'd say would have a point.
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Can you provide evidence that most churches in America violate one of these criteria?
From http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf
To qualify for tax-exempt status, such an
organization must meet the following requirements
(covered in greater detail throughout this publication):
the organization must be organized and operated
exclusively for religious, educational, scientific, or other
charitable purposes,
net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any
private individual or shareholder,
no substantial part of its activity may be attempting
to influence legislation,
the organization may not intervene in political
campaigns, and
the organization’s purposes and activities may not
be illegal or violate fundamental public policy. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2012 : 16:55:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Does the study count all taxes that would be paid if all the current churches were in existence and were required to pay? I suspect some would go out of business and there would exist fewer churches, which would reduce the actual income that would be generated. (It would still be an obscene amount of money.)
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You can't force churches to pay taxes while other 501c3 organizations remain tax exempt. They are not tax exempt because they are religious organizations. They are tax exempt because they meet the requirements of a 501c3. I don't think you can include this as a way the government subsidizes religion. It is subsidizing charity. |
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p557.pdf
| • 501(c)(3) Corporations, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports, or prevention of cruelty for children or animals, |
It's not limited to charity -- it can be exclusively religious, meaning there's no need to justify your charitable activity to be a 501(c)(3). This is precisely the sort of thing I hope to argue against. I hope to put the burden of justifying charitable (or scientific/literary/educational/etc) nature of your organization to qualify. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2012 : 17:09:52 [Permalink]
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Interesting. Public policy, as per Roe vs Wade in the Supreme court says abortion is legal.
A church activity to protest against abortion would be influencing legislation to reverse the Roe vs Wade decision, and thus negate the tax exemption status.
Granted, I'm not well versed in US law and such, I would appreciate input on this.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2012 : 17:39:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Interesting. Public policy, as per Roe vs Wade in the Supreme court says abortion is legal.
A church activity to protest against abortion would be influencing legislation to reverse the Roe vs Wade decision, and thus negate the tax exemption status.
Granted, I'm not well versed in US law and such, I would appreciate input on this. |
I think it would have to be officially organized and/or financed by the church in that case, probably an easy thing to avoid legally and still have it as a de facto church activity. Or, you could just make it an officially supported activity with a nominally moralistic message as opposed to a political one, though of course the political message would be rather clear, if implicit.
Plus, it needs to be a "substantial part of it's activity," which I'm not sure how to establish. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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How US citizens subsidize religion
