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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
 Posted - 09/25/2012 : 13:23:42 [Permalink]
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| Salvation has a price? |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2012 : 16:08:15 [Permalink]
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Anyone wanna bet on whether the Church will have faith that their congregants paid the tax, or will they demand to see tax returns when people line up for Communion?
Of course the latter: people are sinners and can't be trusted. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2012 : 06:38:58 [Permalink]
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The Catholic church is not Christian. They have a works based salvation and assume they control who is saved or not. Jesus decides who is part of His church, not Rome.
Do other countries have a religious tax like this? I don't totally understand the reasoning behind it. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2012 : 07:28:47 [Permalink]
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The Lutheran Church of Sweden has a similar tax, I think it's somewhere between 0.8 and 1.2% of income. It's one of the remnants from the time when the church was state-sanctioned. If your parents were members of the church, you were automatically also a member from when you were born. Once I realised I was still a member, I had to take an active step to leave the church to be excluded from the tax.
A lot of the money the Church of Sweden gets this way covers maintenance of the many old churches around the countryside. Which are basically a part of our cultural heritage. Some of them are historically important, and others are just plain impressive to view.
A smaller fraction is still taken in through tax, called funeral tax, which covers basic funeral (I think non-denimonational if no survivor takes change of the arrangement), final resting place at a cemetery and the care taking for a number of years. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2012 : 07:33:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
The Catholic church is not Christian. They have a works based salvation and assume they control who is saved or not. Jesus decides who is part of His church, not Rome. |
A No True Christian argument. How do you know that Jesus hasn't decided that only Catholics are part of His church? Of course, it could be that Jesus was all wrong, anyway, so what would it matter if Catholics are Christians or not?| Do other countries have a religious tax like this? |
Church taxes. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2012 : 08:55:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
The Catholic church is not Christian. They have a works based salvation and assume they control who is saved or not. Jesus decides who is part of His church, not Rome.
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No true Scotsman fallacy.
This is a pretty common fallacy used by one religious group to discount another. Given that there are so many sects and beliefs among those who identify as Christian, if we were to accept each of the sects pronouncements that all the others aren't Christian as true, because most of the sects use this fallacy to describe the beliefs of others who identify as Christian, there are no Christians. You all cancel each other out with this fallacy. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2012 : 10:18:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
The Catholic church is not Christian. They have a works based salvation and assume they control who is saved or not. Jesus decides who is part of His church, not Rome. |
Jesus ordained Peter to found his church on Earth, making the Roman Catholic Church the only sect of Christianity that can trace it's warrant directly back to the bible. Protestant beliefs are heresies and an anathema to the True Faith.
See? It's easy to make such declarations. Repeating the dogma you were raised on is not a rational argument, though, and carries no weight here.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/26/2012 10:20:14 |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2012 : 13:18:22 [Permalink]
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Besides, according to Junior's predictions, the eschaton should have happened about 1,800 years ago.
Not very reliable this "a son of a god was."
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2012 : 13:01:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
The Lutheran Church of Sweden has a similar tax, I think it's somewhere between 0.8 and 1.2% of income. It's one of the remnants from the time when the church was state-sanctioned. If your parents were members of the church, you were automatically also a member from when you were born. Once I realised I was still a member, I had to take an active step to leave the church to be excluded from the tax.
A lot of the money the Church of Sweden gets this way covers maintenance of the many old churches around the countryside. Which are basically a part of our cultural heritage. Some of them are historically important, and others are just plain impressive to view.
A smaller fraction is still taken in through tax, called funeral tax, which covers basic funeral (I think non-denimonational if no survivor takes change of the arrangement), final resting place at a cemetery and the care taking for a number of years.
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So is the tax only for the Church of Sweden? Is there any kind of tax if you belong to a different church? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2012 : 13:25:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
The Catholic church is not Christian. They have a works based salvation and assume they control who is saved or not. Jesus decides who is part of His church, not Rome. |
A No True Christian argument. How do you know that Jesus hasn't decided that only Catholics are part of His church? Of course, it could be that Jesus was all wrong, anyway, so what would it matter if Catholics are Christians or not? |
The Bible states you need to repent of your sins and put your trust and faith in Jesus to be saved. That's it, no works necessary. The Bible says Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law
The CCC says: 2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."
Both can be false but both cannot be true. The bible defines what a Christian is not the Catholic Church. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2012 : 13:29:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Convinced
The Catholic church is not Christian. They have a works based salvation and assume they control who is saved or not. Jesus decides who is part of His church, not Rome.
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No true Scotsman fallacy.
This is a pretty common fallacy used by one religious group to discount another. Given that there are so many sects and beliefs among those who identify as Christian, if we were to accept each of the sects pronouncements that all the others aren't Christian as true, because most of the sects use this fallacy to describe the beliefs of others who identify as Christian, there are no Christians. You all cancel each other out with this fallacy.
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This does not make sense to me. Just becasue people don't agree on a subject the subject cannot be true? Why can't either a faith only salvation or a works salvation be true? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2012 : 13:32:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Convinced
The Catholic church is not Christian. They have a works based salvation and assume they control who is saved or not. Jesus decides who is part of His church, not Rome. |
Jesus ordained Peter to found his church on Earth, making the Roman Catholic Church the only sect of Christianity that can trace it's warrant directly back to the bible. Protestant beliefs are heresies and an anathema to the True Faith.
See? It's easy to make such declarations. Repeating the dogma you were raised on is not a rational argument, though, and carries no weight here.
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Just because you can make an arguement for something from both sides does not make both arguements false. or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
btw, I was not raised in a christian home, I was saved when I was 32. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2012 : 13:36:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doctor X
Besides, according to Junior's predictions, the eschaton should have happened about 1,800 years ago.
Not very reliable this "a son of a god was."
--J.D.
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So Jesus said he would come back in 212? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2012 : 13:44:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
The Bible states you need to repent of your sins and put your trust and faith in Jesus to be saved. |
Which is contradicted by Jn as well as Mt and Mk. So you reject those gospels?
"The Bible" does not say that, a person named Paul wrote that. A certifiable loon rejected by the Historical Junior's own brother and various Merry Man. He is also directly contradicted by Junior in Mt.
So . . . why do you follow a Loon? Is it because you cherry pick what you "like" and ignore the rest? To wit:
| The CCC says: 2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians |
Which "commandments?" There are no "ten commandments"the Decalogue is merely an artificial cherry picking of a three different sets of "rules" that contradict one another. However, the earliest list demands child sacrifice. So, we should presume you practiced or plan to practice the ritual sacrifice of your first born?
AND if you squeal aqedah [The "binding" of Isaac.--Ed.], know that in the time period of the narratives, YHWH's demand of the sacrifice of the first-born--and it is a burnt offering, trust ye not bowdleriz'd translations!--comes AFTER the aqedah. Further, in the earliest version of it, Isaac does, indeed, get sacrificed.
Which makes this claim ever more unfortunate:
Both can be false but both cannot be true. The bible defines what a Christian is not the Catholic Church.
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It does not. There is no coherent "christianity" in the NT. Worse, Paul's ravings were not "the Original" version which, to be honest, never really existed either.
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2012 : 13:53:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
So Jesus said he would come back in 212?
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There are two passages from Mk where Junior predicts the eschaton within the life-times of the audience in the story.
In Mk 9:1--Copied by Mt in Mt 16:28 and Lk in Lk 9:27--Junior states the eschaton will happen in the lifetime of those "standing here"--his audience in the story:
And he said to them, "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power." (NRSV)
Mk 13:30-31--Mt 24:34-35 and Lk 21:32-32 : this is the infamous prediction that the eschaton will happen in the life time of his audience's generation:
"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." (NRSV)
The NRSV provides a decent enough translation of these passages. I would quote you the Greek, but this forum does not allow HTML to render it. I will simply state that the Nestle-Aland Greek NT (NT-GNT 26 Rev. Edition) differs from the SBLGNT only in the word order of three words in Mk 9:1a, which does not matter in Greek. There are no textual variants that can justify changing the meaning.
Apologists try to redefine a "generation," but with Mk 9:1 above and the fact that both Mt and Lk accept it, they all expected "it" to happen in their individual lifetimes.
Mk dates post 70 CE--this is not controversial. Lk and Mt use him as a source, so they date later but, to make a long story short, both probably date before about 100ish CE.
Now if we pretend there was a pregnant woman listening to Junior, her child would be 70ish by the time of Mt and Lk. We can rather assume he is dead by 150 CE.
Of course, Junior did not actually say any of that: the sayings are composed in Greek rather than based on an Aramaic source.
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
| Edited by - Doctor X on 09/27/2012 13:55:52 |
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German Catholic 8% mandatory tithe
