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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
 Posted - 09/29/2012 : 14:37:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Doctor X is specifically saying that if you read the Bible as if it were written by (or inspired by) an unchanging deity, then you're reading it wrong, because you'll be forced to ignore the context of the beliefs of the diverse authors at the extremely diverse times of authorship. |
Absolutely. One will also be unable to account for the contradictions, parts of the book denouncing other parts of the book--"lying pen of scribes!"--and the various historical and, well, reality errors noted above.
Perhaps it is unfair given his limited knowledge of the texts and hermeneutics [Sigh . . . "biblical criticism."--Ed.], but we do not even HAVE the texts. There exists no one certain version of any of the texts of the HB nor NT. Further, we have evidence of expansions, changes, gross errors, et cetera. I find THAT particular fact rather hilarious when faced with a Fundamentalist--since "inerrancy" is one of the "fundamentals" from which we get that term. It is like a MFY Fan [Boo. Hiss.--Ed.] declaring and maintaining that Jeter tagged out Dave Roberts and the Greatest Collapse in Human History [Available on many DVDs--Ed.] never happened.
As I stated previously, there is no tradition of "inspiration" in the texts beyond one of the last written forged letters which included it simply to deal with all of the contradictions and errors! It declares "inspiration" much like this individual does: to simply close the eyes to reality and continue to pretend otherwise.
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 08:24:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doctor X
The only one unwilling to answer questions is you, son. |
Ok dad.
| I have wasted my time answering questions, providing citations, which you have all purposefully ignored and mischaracterized. |
Then why bother?
Until you answer the questions put to you in response, I shall waste no further time with you. For example:
| The god the bible describes. |
And which god is that? You have been asked that a number of times yet do not respond. |
No, I answered it. You just don’t like the answer. The bible describes one god. You disagree with this, ok, but I did answer.
Notice the individual's complete avoidance of the implications of his claim:
His Humble MagNIfIcence: So you believe the Earth is flat? That it sits, flat, on an ocean--literally within a "bubble" of water that a hard shell holds back from above, and in which the stars, Moon, and Sun reside to revolve around this flat disk? You believe the Earth was separated from the sky before the Sun, Moon, and stars existed? You believe plants existed before the Sun, Moon, and stars? |
| Why not comment on the full meaning of what I said? |
I did, I said I do not believe the earth is flat, or that it sits on an ocean or the stars move around a flat disk. I do believe the earth was separated from the sky before the sun etc. and plants existed before the sun, moon and stars. Does this suffice?
That rather is the "full meaning" of what he wrote, My Children. Methinks he never read the texts and simply lacks knowledge as to what they actually say.
| You must have better things to do than to have a conversation with an idiot like me. So why do you engage in conversation with me? |
Noblesse oblige |
Do you think insulting people is noble?
Now will you answer my one question? Do you believe in a god? Or are you an atheist? Or something else?
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 08:32:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doctor X
Originally posted by Dave W.
Doctor X is specifically saying that if you read the Bible as if it were written by (or inspired by) an unchanging deity, then you're reading it wrong, because you'll be forced to ignore the context of the beliefs of the diverse authors at the extremely diverse times of authorship. |
Absolutely. One will also be unable to account for the contradictions, parts of the book denouncing other parts of the book--"lying pen of scribes!"--and the various historical and, well, reality errors noted above.
Perhaps it is unfair given his limited knowledge of the texts and hermeneutics [Sigh . . . "biblical criticism."--Ed.], but we do not even HAVE the texts. There exists no one certain version of any of the texts of the HB nor NT. Further, we have evidence of expansions, changes, gross errors, et cetera. I find THAT particular fact rather hilarious when faced with a Fundamentalist--since "inerrancy" is one of the "fundamentals" from which we get that term. It is like a MFY Fan [Boo. Hiss.--Ed.] declaring and maintaining that Jeter tagged out Dave Roberts and the Greatest Collapse in Human History [Available on many DVDs--Ed.] never happened.
As I stated previously, there is no tradition of "inspiration" in the texts beyond one of the last written forged letters which included it simply to deal with all of the contradictions and errors! It declares "inspiration" much like this individual does: to simply close the eyes to reality and continue to pretend otherwise.
--J.D.
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Great, this is what I was trying to get at. How can we ever agree on anything when we have a huge gulf in our view of the bible?
Also, if the god described in the bible was proved to exist to you, what would your response be? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 10:06:02 [Permalink]
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| My response would be, Ha I told you so! Cause the god you and others describe is NOT the one found in the bible. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 10:11:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Great, this is what I was trying to get at. How can we ever agree on anything when we have a huge gulf in our view of the bible? |
Indeed, how could we agree if you insist upon rejecting the objective, historical context surrounding the Bible?| Also, if the god described in the bible was proved to exist to you, what would your response be? |
I hope you meant this as an open question. My response would be two middle fingers lifted towards Heaven. I think I would be driven towards doggedly (if futilely) opposing everything that the bullying, misogynistic asswipe described in the Bible tries to do, out of sheer moral outrage.
Sheesh. Right now, I see churches as a silly waste of land, money and time. If god really does exist, though, then every single one of them becomes a horrifically dangerous place in which sycophants praise their demented hero and wait for his instructions to unleash more harm on the world, and burning them to the ground might become part of a larger plan to fight against the (anyways inevitable) slaughter.
The point being that god's mere existence wouldn't mitigate any of the evil traits he must have if the Bible is accurate. Knowledge that he exists won't change my mind about whether god is something I would worship or revile. The only reason I don't hate god right now is that I think he's fictional. If I learned that he exists, I surely wouldn't start doing anything I'm supposed to do to get into heaven, because sharing eternity with such a monster would be anathema to me (and surely god would see right through my lies, anyway). So the choice between Heaven and Hell is no choice at all: they're both terrible places, so perhaps instead of anti-god warfare, I'd invest all my energies into finding the medical secret to immortality just to avoid going to either one. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 12:49:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
No, I answered it. You just don’t like the answer. The bible describes one god. |
It does not, so you did not. However, we have rather established your unfamiliarity with the biblical texts.
| I did, I said I do not believe the earth is flat, or that it sits on an ocean or the stars move around a flat disk. |
Then you reject the P Creation myth as well as other creation myths of the HB. You reject the NT as well. Rather difficult for you to maintain the delusion the texts are "inspired" by anything supernatural given how you so fundamentally disagree with them.
| I do believe the earth was separated from the sky before the sun etc. and plants existed before the sun, moon and stars. Does this suffice? |
Then you need to obtain a basic science--and history--education. The Sun, for example, is somewhat older than the Earth . . . and plants.
| Now will you answer my one question? Do you believe in a god? Or are you an atheist? Or something else? |
I refer you to the answer I gave previously . . . since you like to pretend to answer questions you did not answer, perhaps you will understand my reference to an answer I actually gave.
Son.
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 12:51:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
How can we ever agree on anything when we have a huge gulf in our view of the bible? |
Your view is irrelevant to the biblical texts as noted above. It has less relevance to them than, say, someone demanding to know why the team at-bat does not blitz the pitcher.
Also, if the god described in the bible was proved to exist to you, what would your response be?
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Would depend on which god.
--J.D.
[Edited to correct scribal incompetence.--Ed.] |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
| Edited by - Doctor X on 10/05/2012 12:58:02 |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 12:56:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Do you think insulting people is noble? |
Certainly many members of the Great Unwashed benefit from a sound thrashing now and then; however, I have insulted no one. If you feel the unpacking of your words, the exposure of how little you have bothered to study the subjects upon which you pretend knowledge, then I can only suggest you rectify your situation with acquisition of the basics, some of which, have been revealed to you.
Or to quote a venerable Irishman:
There's no shame being born in the shite, lads, but there's ever so much for wanting to stay in it!
--Sgt. Maj. Patrick Harper, South Essex |
--J. "LOUDER!" D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 13:47:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doctor X
Also, if the god described in the bible was proved to exist to you, what would your response be?
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Would depend on which god. |
How about any one of them. Pick one. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
| Edited by - Convinced on 10/05/2012 13:47:35 |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 13:56:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doctor X
I refer you to the answer I gave previously . . . since you like to pretend to answer questions you did not answer, perhaps you will understand my reference to an answer I actually gave.
Son.
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As I understand your answer you do know god exists but you just suppress that knowledge in unrighteousness. If this is incorrect can you please explain further? These things are hard for me to understand without a basic science or history education.
Also, why call me son? Should I keep calling you dad or do you want to go by father or master? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 13:59:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I hope you meant this as an open question. My response would be two middle fingers lifted towards Heaven. I think I would be driven towards doggedly (if futilely) opposing everything that the bullying, misogynistic asswipe described in the Bible tries to do, out of sheer moral outrage.
Sheesh. Right now, I see churches as a silly waste of land, money and time. If god really does exist, though, then every single one of them becomes a horrifically dangerous place in which sycophants praise their demented hero and wait for his instructions to unleash more harm on the world, and burning them to the ground might become part of a larger plan to fight against the (anyways inevitable) slaughter.
The point being that god's mere existence wouldn't mitigate any of the evil traits he must have if the Bible is accurate. Knowledge that he exists won't change my mind about whether god is something I would worship or revile. The only reason I don't hate god right now is that I think he's fictional. If I learned that he exists, I surely wouldn't start doing anything I'm supposed to do to get into heaven, because sharing eternity with such a monster would be anathema to me (and surely god would see right through my lies, anyway). So the choice between Heaven and Hell is no choice at all: they're both terrible places, so perhaps instead of anti-god warfare, I'd invest all my energies into finding the medical secret to immortality just to avoid going to either one.
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Thanks for the straightforward answer. Do you think it is appropriate that you should judge a god that has all knowledge with your relatively little knowledge? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 14:51:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Thanks for the straightforward answer. Do you think it is appropriate that you should judge a god that has all knowledge with your relatively little knowledge? |
Even if god existed, he could not prove his omniscience to me without granting it to me, so all the evidence I could ever have would suggest that god doesn't know right from wrong better than I ever will. If he were to impart a little knowledge to me such that I would change my opinion of something he's done from heinous to virtuous, it would only confirm that I don't have the full picture, which would imply that maybe he'd look even worse if I knew all of his plans for eternity. Keeping such things secret is part of the reason I have such a low opinion of him now, anyway. The only way he could fix that is to grant me complete knowledge, which would in fact strip me of my allegedly free will, so he's not going to do that, is he? No, I'm stuck with always having less knowledge than god, and think that it's absolutely appropriate to use the tools he allegedly gave me to the best of my ability with the evidence at hand. His insistence that I dwell in ignorance while making what is (according to the Bible) the most important decision of my mortal life is part of the reason I think he's a monstrous bully. What possible rational reason could I ever have for trusting such a being?
In short, if the conclusions of my deliberations on god's character (and whether I would ever want to be "saved") paint him in a horrible light, it's his own damned fault.
(If he exists, of course.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 14:57:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
...I do not believe the earth is flat, or that it sits on an ocean or the stars move around a flat disk. I do believe the earth was separated from the sky before the sun etc. and plants existed before the sun, moon and stars. |
Why believe some stuff from the Bible, but not other stuff?
Do you believe the creation days were literal 24-hour periods? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 15:18:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
How about any one of them. Pick one.
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Asherah was much the hottie!
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
| Edited by - Doctor X on 10/05/2012 15:19:34 |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2012 : 15:37:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
As I understand your answer you do know god exists but you just suppress that knowledge in unrighteousness. |
I am unaware how what I wrote could be so misunderstood without highly illicit psychodelics involved.
| If this is incorrect can you please explain further? These things are hard for me to understand without a basic science or history education. |
Then you should remedy the deficiency.
And we are here to help.
Noblesse oblige 'n all.
In the rain.
First, since you actually confessed you believe plants existed prior to the Sun . . . well . . . you need to correct that. Obtain Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy. Very painless way to know what we know about cosmology--how the Earth, solar system, universe were formed and, more particularly why he know that. I mean, really, we have to be in the same plane of reality. If Dave W and I are arguing about, I do not know, the "leg before the whicket" rules in cricket and I respond with "You forget that forward passes are illegal in both college and professional football! EYARG!!!!BLOOD!!BLOOD!!!" well, we will not make much progress.
You will also learn whether or not toilets flush in different directions above and below the Equator. Such knowledge should not be floccinaucinihilipilificated.
On what the biblical texts actually are--what we know about them, scholarship, all of that--there are a number of resources that do not require expertise in the primary languages and all of that. Some I have referenced above, but it helps if I have specific questions.
Unfortunately, references for the polytheism of the Hebrew Bible and relevant religionS represented by the texts--more properly a "henotheism" or "there be many gods BUT MY GOD SMASH!!!"--do tend to the scholarly. However, there are some easier to understand than others.
For the very basic of "how" the Hebrew Bible came together, I would usually recommend Friedmans, Who Wrote the Bible?. However, I think an even better book--with clearer examples--is the recently published and celebrated The Composition of the Pentateuch by Joel S. Baden.
NT textual history is another topic for which there are many helpful references.
All are my sons. . . .
Should I keep calling you dad or do you want to go by father or master?
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I am not one to stand on formality, so "Your Immense Unfathomable Yet Humble MagNIfIcence" will do fine.
Remember to do the dance, of course.
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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German Catholic 8% mandatory tithe
