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DefiantVodka
New Member
Canada
1 Post |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 02:54:11 [Permalink]
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| You are retreading ground covered extensively by many more well-known and some more well-spoken Atheists. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 04:12:43 [Permalink]
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While that may be true, OffC (and I'm certain that DefiantVodka knows this)...
That fact is not a reason to not do it. Other wise, there wouldn't be a reason to play baseball after Babe Ruth made his career. Or make a painting after Picasso or Monet.
After all, the bible in its current form has been around for a lot longer than the examples above. And DV's target audience isn't Richard Dawkings, Dennett, or Penn & Teller. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 04:34:11 [Permalink]
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| That fact is not a reason to not do it. Other wise, there wouldn't be a reason to play baseball after Babe Ruth made his career. |
Well a good reason to play baseball would be because you enjoy it, and to make money. So if those are your intentions, good for you. It doesn't seem likely those are his only goals however, since it's pretty hard to make money off of Youtube, and if he did it purely for his own enjoyment, it wouldn't make sense to be promoting it on forums.
So if he meant to actually reach out to people, as I suspect he does, then he might want to try a new subject, or try a new technique. Something that might make people take more notice. I think that's pretty good advice(otherwise I wouldn't give it, clearly).
| And DV's target audience isn't Richard Dawkings, Dennett, or Penn & Teller. |
Er, no... But his target audience can probably find more of the same from those people, but better. Penn & Teller have covered the 10 commandments on a show, if that doesn't appeal to you, Christopher Hitchens has covered them at length, if not that then there are many others. All with different styles. Does anyone really need an unknown guy in a badly-lit room talking into a webcam? I'm sure there are plenty of them already too.
He asked me to check it out and that's my constructive criticism. |
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 09/29/2012 04:36:02 |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 06:29:05 [Permalink]
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There is also really no "ten commandments"; there are about three sets of commandments from which people cherry pick what they "wike."
I am still disappointed that, entering soon the Holiday Seasons, the commandment to sacrifice your first born never appears in modern renditions. 
--J. "Hey! GET OFF My LAWN!" D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 09/29/2012 : 07:01:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doctor X
There is also really no "ten commandments"; there are about three sets of commandments from which people cherry pick what they "wike." |
If I remember correctly, there are 613 commandments - many dealing with what to do when you find that you have become "unclean." And the "top ten" lists appear three different times, in slightly different priorities.| I am still disappointed that, entering soon the Holiday Seasons, the commandment to sacrifice your first born never appears in modern renditions. |
I imagine you can find some ultra-orthodox rabbis willing to enforce at least a few of the crazier rules. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2012 : 07:20:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
And the "top ten" lists appear three different times, in slightly different priorities. |
They do. Briefly [He does not know the meaning of that word.--Ed.]:
E Writer: Ex 15:25b-26
| There he [YHWH--Ed.] made for them a statute and an ordinance and there he proved them, saying, "if you will diligently hearken to the voice of YHWH your god, and do that which is right in his eyes, and give heed to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases upon you which I put upon the Egyptians; for I am YHWH, your healer." |
You then get a long slew of rules from Ex 21:1-27; 22:1-30; 23:1-33 probably based on an earlier "Covenant Code," (Friedman) which contains such uplifting moral exemplars as the rules for slaves and the death penalty for various offenses including striking Mum and Dad, "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth," murderous oxen, then various torts such as leaving holes for oxen to fall in and negligent fire safety, more death penalty, this time for Wiccans and people who like farm animals, then lending rules, forbiddance of blasphemy and cursing your chieftain, then the demand for child sacrifice, then sacrifice of the first-born of other animals . . . ZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZzzzzzzZZZZzzzzz . . . oh and do not boil that kid in his mother's milk while you are at it! It is in E that Moses does the "smashy thing" with the tablets.
J Writer: Ex 34:14-28
The YHWHistic "Decalogue," like the E's, is actually a small part of a section of commandments. YHWH starts giving commandments right at the beginning of the chapter. Ex 34:1b has the Redactor explaining the problem that the J story does not have Moses smash the tablets.
| YHWH said to Moses, "Cut two tables of stone like the first; and I will write upon the tables the words that were on the first tables, which you broke. |
Friedman suggests that the E writer wished to raise doubts about Judah's central religious shrine--it could not have had the original tablets (Friedman). Nothing sets the "10 Commandments" apart in the J text. The J text that is similar to the Decalogue of the other writers is:
"(for you shall worship no other god, for YHWH is a jealous god), lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and when they play the harlot after their gods and sacrifice to their gods and one invites you, you eat of his sacrifice, and you take of their daughters for your sons, and their daughters play the harlot after their gods and make your sons play the harlot after their gods. You shall make for yourself no molten gods. The feast of unleaven bread you shall keep. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month Abib; for in the month Abib you came out from Egypt. All that opens the womb is mine, all your male cattle, the firstlings of cow and sheep. The firstling of an ass you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the first-born of your sons you shall redeem. And none shall appear before me empty. Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; in plowing time and in harvest you shall rest. And you shall observe the feast of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end. Three times in the year shall all your males appear before YHWH god, the god of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither shall any many desire your land, when you go up to appear before YHWH your god three times in the year. You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left until the morning. The first of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of YHWH your god. You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk."
And YHWH said to Moses, "Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." And he was there with YHWH forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote upon tables the words of the covenant, the words. [The RSV admits to using "ten commandments" for the Hebrew "words."--Ed.] |
and is considerably longer than ten! Good thing Former-Chief Justice Moore did not choose this version or E's Covenant Codes! To your comment:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I imagine you can find some ultra-orthodox rabbis willing to enforce at least a few of the crazier rules.
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J allows redeeming of the first-born, a practice that persists to this day, though I would not be surprised if many do not understand the origin of the ritual. Now where are our other favorite commandments? No sabbath rule, no, "thou shalt nots"--kill/murder, covet, bear false witness--though, as with the E Covenant Code, be careful about boiling kids in their mother's milk . . . and do not offer the blood of the sacrificed on leaven bread.
P Writer: Ex 20:2-17
Similarly, these are not called the "10 Commandments" in the text, and they are rather longer than ten. P, a big Aaron fan since the writer is considered part of the Aaronid priesthood, adds Aaron to the story. The introduction: "And god spoke all these words, saying," is the Redactor who brought together the combined JE with P:
| "I am YHWH your god, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before/besides me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I YHWH your god am a jealous god, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not take the name of YHWH your god in vain; for YHWH will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. Remember the sabbath day to sanctify it. Six days you shall labor and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath day to YHWH your god; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; because in six days YHWH made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and he rested on the seventh day. Therefore YHWH blessed the sabbath day and sanctified it.[Probable R--Ed.] Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which YHWH your god gives you. You shall not kill. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's." |
again, quite a bit of writing with little correspondence to the J version. Apparently, YHWH dictates different versions. I "corrected" the RSV version to Friedman's translation, because he notes that P quotes his own creation story. In his later work, Friedman changes his mind a bit and suggests that it, ". . . does not appear to belong to any of the major sources. It is likely to be an independent document, which was inserted by the Redactor," (Friedman, The Bible). D, as seen below, prefers to cite the D reason for keeping commandments--he got you out of slavery. Friedman notes that a Dead Sea Scroll text combines both reasons [All Souls Deuteronomy Scroll--Ed.]. Frankly, his earlier treatment of the passage makes just as much sense:
| The differences between the Ten Commandments as they appear here and in Deuteronomy 5 indicate that there was an original text of the Ten Commandment--which appears to have been a part of E originally--that was elaborated upon by the person who produced P in typical P terminology, and by the person who produced Dtr1 in typical D terminology (Friedman, Who). |
I could then wander off on other sources . . . I have tangented this enough!
D Writer: Deut 5:6-17
| [Perpetually dying Moses summons "all Israel" to re-state the commandments.--Ed.] "'I am YHWH your god, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before/besides me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I YHWH your god am a jealous god, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not take the name of YHWH your god in vain: for YHWH will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as YHWH your god commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath day to YHWH your god; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and YHWH your god brought you out from there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore YHWH your god commanded you to observe the sabbath day. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with you, in the land which YHWH your god gives you. You shall not kill. You shall not commit adultery. Neither shall you steal. Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor. Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife; you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.' |
Again, no mention of this "ten commandments." Notice the different reasons for keeping the sabbath in the D and P versions. We can also see D quoting P material while dropping the P creation reference.
--J.D.
References:
Friedman RE. Who Wrote the Bible?. 2nd Ed. San Francisco: Harper Collins, 1997.
Friedman RE. The Bible with Sources Revealed. San Francisco: Harper Collins, 2003.
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His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
| Edited by - Doctor X on 09/29/2012 07:21:28 |
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