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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 03/21/2013 : 19:38:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Nope. From a skeptical point of view, they are treated the same. Testable claims are tested. No one is telling anyone to lay off of testable claims about ghosts or testable claims about God and religion. And people of faith who are also skeptics usually support that sort of thing. (I have yet to meet a biblical literalist among skeptics, for example.)
Find me the person in a leadership position who says we can't test claims made about either one of those things. |
The "kicked out of the club" complaint is clearly about the social aspects of the Skeptical Movement, and not the testability of religious claims. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 22:00:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
Nope. From a skeptical point of view, they are treated the same. Testable claims are tested. No one is telling anyone to lay off of testable claims about ghosts or testable claims about God and religion. And people of faith who are also skeptics usually support that sort of thing. (I have yet to meet a biblical literalist among skeptics, for example.)
Find me the person in a leadership position who says we can't test claims made about either one of those things. |
The "kicked out of the club" complaint is clearly about the social aspects of the Skeptical Movement, and not the testability of religious claims.
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You know... I don't really know how many skeptics are people of faith. So I don't know how to respond. I know that they are out there and I know some of them. And they are people who are of value to skepticism in general.
Testable claims are testable claims. And if a person of faith can't deal with it, that's not really our problem. And to tell you the truth, I would rather pull in people of faith than push them away. I would rather get them thinking, using our methods, than not. And I don't mean to sound condescending to them when I say that. If after considering their position, they feel more comfortable with their faith, and they get that religion doesn't get a pass, whatever. This is like a mantra with me because I've said it so many times. If what they bring to the table is mostly rational, then the world will be a better place for it. I suppose that comes from the humanist in me. I don't personally need for people to not believe in God. What I need for them to be is mostly rational, skeptical, and to promote secularism as strongly as they support reason and skepticism.
Here's what I know. Skepticism doesn't automatically lead everyone who does it to atheism. You'd think that it would, but it doesn't. I don't know why. But it doesn't. And I'd much rather those people of faith were skeptics than biblical literalists. So what the hell? Some people think religion is the elephant in the room. Again, I don't know. I know too many really smart people of faith, who are mostly rational, and probably more rational than I am in some areas, to pass judgment on them. Do I think they're wrong? Yeah. I do. But all in all, I care less about what they believe than what they do with what they believe.
I can't help but to be an atheist. I have no clue as to what it means to be a believer because I've never really been one. Every fiber of my being says that the idea that there is anything beyond nature is untenable. Ridiculous. Absurd. But I have to tell you, and I'm only speaking for myself, that what I see everyday online makes me not really care about my atheism nearly as much as I care about my skepticism. It's not even a contest. I get just as riled when I see an atheist say something stupid as I do a person of faith, or even a professed skeptic. It's all the same to me. And it's so regular that it's depressing. Curing people of religion isn't going to save the world. Clearer thinking might. But even that's a Sisyphean task. It's a worthy and sometimes fun task, but it'll probably only end when our species goes extinct.
Fuck. I don't even know what I'm trying to say anymore. So I guess this rant is over. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2013 : 11:34:56 [Permalink]
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| You're coming at this backwards, Kil. When someone like Kenneth Miller complains that if people don't cease criticizing his religion, he's going to stop doing science advocacy and/or quit playing with the skeptics (which he really did do), I say, "don't let the door hit you on the way out." The accommodationists, on the other hand, think the only correct response is apologies and pleading in the face of such blatant emotional blackmail, "for the solidarity of the movement." If the skeptical movement requires such obsequiousness to particular individuals to survive, then the movement is weakly founded - a cult of personalities instead of a grassroots engine for social change. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2013 : 14:16:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
You're coming at this backwards, Kil. When someone like Kenneth Miller complains that if people don't cease criticizing his religion, he's going to stop doing science advocacy and/or quit playing with the skeptics (which he really did do), I say, "don't let the door hit you on the way out." The accommodationists, on the other hand, think the only correct response is apologies and pleading in the face of such blatant emotional blackmail, "for the solidarity of the movement." If the skeptical movement requires such obsequiousness to particular individuals to survive, then the movement is weakly founded - a cult of personalities instead of a grassroots engine for social change.
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Well... I don't know the back story so I can't really comment. Lots of people are critical of Catholicism, including me. But that has to do with real life stuff, like the Vatican's position on contraception and abortion and protecting pedophiles and stuff like that. It has little to do with a belief in God. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2013 : 14:24:47 [Permalink]
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| Miller was just an example, Kil. Is keeping any particular person within the skeptical movement more important than the freedom of skeptics to criticize their religion/politics/ideology? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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The Media Guide to Skepticism
