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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
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2830 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2013 : 06:40:03 [Permalink]
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LOGIC? Imagine that, you comparing yourself with other people's imaginary God. I'd say you have gone to far. Being supernatural God can only exist in this natural world within the minds of those who have the need to fantasize about His existence and that's it. By God not really existing in your mind, you have no logical foundation for any comparisons. It's logically absurd and placating to far. These threads begin and end in a place where those who are unable to accept the natural world and invent their own lure others into their twilight zone. Logic does not exist here. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
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Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2013 : 10:18:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced I think of it as more that God just is these things rather than God weighs different options and then comes to a conclusion for us to follow. There is no other option for god to decide. But I can agree that this definition fits enough of about how I see how God decides things.
| So much for omnipotence. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
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USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2013 : 14:03:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced I am more inclined to agree with this definition. Although it does seem to fall short. I think of it as more that God just is these things rather than God weighs different options and then comes to a conclusion for us to follow. There is no other option for god to decide. | Ok, so god has no choice to but have this inflexible nature. He doesn't weigh moral decisions and decide how to act according to some set of principles. His morality is the whole of his character, which simply is. Like a force of nature. Like gravity.
Is such a god as that a good thing? Rigid, inflexible morality systems tend to be the most inhumane. How do we determine if such a god is acting in our best interests? How might we judge god, if god offers us no principles by which to judge him? You might say our only duty is to obey, but can can unquestioning obedience ever be ethical? Don't you find it odd that a supreme being would rule through commands and punishments instead of compelling reasons and articulate explanations? If the source of biblical morality is an omnipotent supermind, which does it so closely resemble a mishmash of human prejudices, taboos, and disgusts?
The question is how you view the contradictions. I have been down this road before and the contradictions in the bible can be explained; however, some are more persuasive than others. There are still some that I cannot explain to my satisfaction. | There's more that needs explaining than just the contradictions. Christianity not only has to be consistent with itself, it must be consistent with reality.
You can always make up explanations. But the alternative hypothesis--that the bible seems fantastical because it's fiction--is the explanation that fits all of the evidence the best. It's objectively the most compelling conclusion.
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pleco
SFN Addict
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USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2013 : 14:23:51 [Permalink]
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That means god doesn't have free will. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
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USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2013 : 17:01:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W. Being constrained by logical necessity is a limitation. I'm more free than god, in that sense, since I can ignore logical necessity at times. In argumentation, for example, I'm free to state logically unsound conclusions. Regardless of being presented a black swan, I can continue to state that all of them are white. Not so a perfect god. |
No, there would be no logical necessity for YOU to act good, so you cannot "ignore logical necessity" and act otherwise because it isn't logical necessity at all. The action itself for the god would be logically necessary, not the fact that the act is good or logical. Plus, you might be an automaton if it's a deterministic world anyhow.
But barring that, I still don't see a problem with a concept of perfection constrained to logical necessity.
Besides, I'm specifically stating that god cannot make moral choices. If god could choose to be good, that would mean that he's capable of choosing otherwise (or at least mulling it over), which again contradicts his perfectness. |
Define perfect... if such a thing occurring entails a logical fallacy or "god making moral choices" is not even a well-formed statement, then it's not a challenge to much of anything as far as I can tell. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." -Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable" -Albert Camus |
Edited by - Machi4velli on 09/27/2013 17:02:22 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
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USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2013 : 17:03:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
LOGIC? Imagine that, you comparing yourself with other people's imaginary God. I'd say you have gone to far. Being supernatural God can only exist in this natural world within the minds of those who have the need to fantasize about His existence and that's it. By God not really existing in your mind, you have no logical foundation for any comparisons. It's logically absurd and placating to far. These threads begin and end in a place where those who are unable to accept the natural world and invent their own lure others into their twilight zone. Logic does not exist here.
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Logic exists in fantasy worlds, I can easily make up a meaningless logical system. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." -Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable" -Albert Camus |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
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USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2013 : 17:05:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
That means god doesn't have free will.
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Why is that a necessary condition? Maybe no one does. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." -Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable" -Albert Camus |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
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2830 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2013 : 10:25:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Logic exists in fantasy worlds, I can easily make up a meaningless logical system.
| Well of course, like what's going on all through this thread. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
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2830 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2013 : 10:46:47 [Permalink]
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I agree with Sam Harris' take on the Christian beliefs when a honest and critically examination is done. Which is not being done here. Quoting Sam "Playing tennis without the net" really? More like playing tennis where one side has no net. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
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USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2013 : 05:20:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Plus, you might be an automaton if it's a deterministic world anyhow. | Given the other assumptions we're making in this argument (god exists; god is something like what's described in the Bible, etc.), I'm pretty sure the context demands truly free will and thus a non-deterministic universe.I'm pretty sure I defined well what "perfect" is not: a being that always acts good because it is the embodiment of good can do no more moral calculus than a bacterium. It can be nothing more than a stimulus/response machine regarding moral questions. It cannot reason its way towards a particular ethical position, it's just there. As far as deities go, I would consider that very imperfect. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
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USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2013 : 09:40:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W. I'm pretty sure I defined well what "perfect" is not: a being that always acts good because it is the embodiment of good can do no more moral calculus than a bacterium. It can be nothing more than a stimulus/response machine regarding moral questions. It cannot reason its way towards a particular ethical position, it's just there. As far as deities go, I would consider that very imperfect.
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Isn't this a bit like saying Joe is less perfect because he already knows the answer to a math problem?
You're making more knowledge a challenge to perfection, so I don't quite understand how anything could be perfect, because I would expect a perfect being to know everything, or else there would be extra things it could learn, learning which would increase its degree of perfection. So, really, I'm not sure "perfect" is unambiguous. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people." -Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable" -Albert Camus |
Edited by - Machi4velli on 10/02/2013 09:44:55 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
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USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2013 : 07:30:57 [Permalink]
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If Joe simply knew the answer without actually solving the math problem? Yeah, that's less perfect than if Joe merely remembered the answer from having previously solved the problem.
I suppose a perfect being could both know the answer immediately and be able to demonstrate its perfect knowledge of the step-by-step solution.
I further suppose that my objections to such perfect beings is based more than anything else on distaste for what such an existence must entail (utter lack of challenge/entertainment). Further still, perhaps a perfect being could understand (perfectly) a method to "transcend" the sheer boredom of omniscience. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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