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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
 Posted - 06/20/2013 : 07:04:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
There's a big difference between "bad things" and "sin," but nevermind that for now. |
But it is a critical issue. If you don’t understand sin and its implications you cannot rightly understand the gospel.
| If I give a gun to a toddler, and it goes off, I'd certainly be responsible for that. If we are like children compared to God's infinite wisdom, then God has given us a gun in the form of the ability to sin. God created the very idea of sin. It's all on him, especially since he could have chosen otherwise. |
Where sin came from is debatable but what is not debatable is whether God created sin. 1 Jn 3 says sin is lawlessness. God created the law so God cannot create anything that violates his law.
God did create the conditions where we could choose to break the law. The law is good, but the consequences of having a law are that people can choose to not follow it unless God forces us to obey it. If that was the case then what does it matter if we have the law or not.
The first person to sin was Lucifer (Ezekiel 28 & Isaiah 14). Adam and Eve were made with no sin nature yet still chose to sin. James 1:13 states that God does not cause anyone to sin.
I agree that if you gave a child a gun to play with you are responsible for any consequences. However that is not what God did. God gave us the law and told us to keep it. It is more like if a parent tells a child not to play in the street and that child then disobeys and plays in the street, it is not the parents fault the child disobeyed.
| Absolutely! In fact, when faced with an autocrat who holds the power of life and death, that's the most important time to question! Do you think the people suffering under brutal dictatorships around the world should just suck it up and not complain? |
It is prideful to think that you know more how to run things than God. BTW, God sets up all governments for his purposes. On what basis do you say a brutal dictatorship is wrong? But that’s a different conversation.
| Don't you think a loving God would welcome questions and answer them with perfect patience? It would mean that we're using the brains he gave us, and not just following him like sheep. |
Your assuming that Christians do not think about these things. Is it possible to use your brain and come to the conclusion that the Bible is true?
| God knows our future but that does not mean that he directs every detail of our lives. I have free will to choose to go to the movies or not, god does not direct things like that as far as I can see in the Bible. He just knows what we would choose. |
And so we cannot choose differently. If God cannot be wrong, and he knew millennia ago that I would now be typing this very sentence, then I can't do anything different. If I'd typed a different sentence, God would have been mistaken. Free will and inerrant omniscience are logically opposed. |
I disagree. I can write anything I want, the fact that God knows what I am going to write next has no bearing on my decision. God just knows what my choice will be.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 15:47:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
It is prideful to think that you know more how to run things than God. BTW, God sets up all governments for his purposes. On what basis do you say a brutal dictatorship is wrong? But that’s a different conversation.
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Wow. Just, wow.
So those poor suckers at North Korea - oh and what about those whose governments make impossible to know about Christianity at all? Damned without even any possibility of being saved. I'm quite sure there are tribes out there who don't even know Jesus is a thing. Damned if you do, damned if you don't... and yet God is loving. And just. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 16:09:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
Originally posted by Convinced
It is prideful to think that you know more how to run things than God. BTW, God sets up all governments for his purposes. On what basis do you say a brutal dictatorship is wrong? But that’s a different conversation.
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Wow. Just, wow.
So those poor suckers at North Korea - oh and what about those whose governments make impossible to know about Christianity at all? Damned without even any possibility of being saved. I'm quite sure there are tribes out there who don't even know Jesus is a thing. Damned if you do, damned if you don't... and yet God is loving. And just.
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Do you have any biblical text that supports your assertions here? I am just conveying what the Bible says about governments. It says God institutes all governments. Romans 13:1-7 (NIV)
| Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. |
On what basis do you think brutal dictatorships are wrong? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 17:10:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
There's a big difference between "bad things" and "sin," but nevermind that for now. |
But it is a critical issue. If you don’t understand sin and its implications you cannot rightly understand the gospel. |
I understand it just fine.| Where sin came from is debatable but what is not debatable is whether God created sin. 1 Jn 3 says sin is lawlessness. God created the law so God cannot create anything that violates his law. |
So because people violate his law, God cannot have created people. Is that how that logic is supposed to work?| God did create the conditions where we could choose to break the law. The law is good, but the consequences of having a law are that people can choose to not follow it unless God forces us to obey it. If that was the case then what does it matter if we have the law or not. |
And God does force some people to disobey it, what with hardened hearts and all.| The first person to sin was Lucifer (Ezekiel 28 & Isaiah 14). |
Lucifer was an angel, not a human. Is there any place in the Bible where it says that God gave free will to angels? I don't think so. Beyond which, the free will that god granted humans is all about the choice to have faith or not. Lucifer, being an angel, knew god personally, and therefore had no need to choose to believe.| Adam and Eve were made with no sin nature yet still chose to sin. |
No, they were denied knowledge of evil, and so couldn't make a informed choice. They were coerced by a non-human (without free will) into disobeying a law about which they were made purposefully ignorant of the consequences. They were purposefully set up by god to fail, and thus shoulder none of the responsibility. They were patsies.| James 1:13 states that God does not cause anyone to sin. |
No, God just left the gun laying on the living-room table, loaded and cocked, and told us two-year-olds not to play with it, despite how shiny it looks. Find me anyone who wouldn't say that was simply a reckless disregard for safety.| I agree that if you gave a child a gun to play with you are responsible for any consequences. However that is not what God did. God gave us the law and told us to keep it. It is more like if a parent tells a child not to play in the street and that child then disobeys and plays in the street, it is not the parents fault the child disobeyed. |
Try getting that past judge and jury anywhere in the land. Children are held innocent of these things because they don't know right from wrong. That's why good parents don't punish children forever for their misdeeds, but instead use the opportunity to teach the children to behave better in the future.| It is prideful to think that you know more how to run things than God. |
Why do you think I might care about that?| BTW, God sets up all governments for his purposes. |
That's a new one on me. What happened to "render onto Caesar..."?| On what basis do you say a brutal dictatorship is wrong? |
On the basis of the secular morality I've come to embrace, derived mostly from my empathy for my fellow humans.| But that’s a different conversation. |
No, I don't think it is.| Don't you think a loving God would welcome questions and answer them with perfect patience? It would mean that we're using the brains he gave us, and not just following him like sheep. |
Your assuming that Christians do not think about these things. |
I know that most self-described Christians don't think about these things.| Is it possible to use your brain and come to the conclusion that the Bible is true? |
I don't see how. You're not using your brain when you tell me that you believe the Bible to be true because Jesus did. That's obedience, not thought.| I disagree. I can write anything I want, the fact that God knows what I am going to write next has no bearing on my decision. God just knows what my choice will be. |
You keep on saying the same thing over and over as if it explains the contradiction to not be a contradiction. But you don't know what your future decisions will be, so you can't say that you will make them freely. God already knows what you'll decide next, so how can the choice be free? You can't possibly choose other than what god knows you'll choose. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 17:20:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I am just conveying what the Bible says about governments. It says God institutes all governments. Romans 13:1-7 (NIV) |
More evidence that the Bible intends for people to become mindless sheep. That's scary, totalitarian stuff right there. Next thing you know, the Bible will tell girls to marry their rapists. Ooops.
Of course, Bible scholars have known for quite some time that the governments in place at the time the books were written had a hand in editing them, so it's no surprise that the Bible says, "obey the government or else." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 17:59:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
So because people violate his law, God cannot have created people. Is that how that logic is supposed to work? |
No. He did not create sin, God did create the conditions. I would say God cannot force people to sin.
| And God does force some people to disobey it, what with hardened hearts and all. |
Do you have any text to support this?
| Lucifer was an angel, not a human. Is there any place in the Bible where it says that God gave free will to angels? I don't think so. Beyond which, the free will that god granted humans is all about the choice to have faith or not. Lucifer, being an angel, knew god personally, and therefore had no need to choose to believe. |
Tim2:26 indicates angels have free will. Also, 2Pet2:4 says angels can sin.
| No, they were denied knowledge of evil, and so couldn't make a informed choice. They were coerced by a non-human (without free will) into disobeying a law about which they were made purposefully ignorant of the consequences. They were purposefully set up by god to fail, and thus shoulder none of the responsibility. They were patsies. |
Can you support this with some text?
| No, God just left the gun laying on the living-room table, loaded and cocked, and told us two-year-olds not to play with it, despite how shiny it looks. Find me anyone who wouldn't say that was simply a reckless disregard for safety. |
You made the assertion that we are children compared to god but that is not the case. There is nowhere in the Bible that I know of that has this theology you attribute to it. You don’t seem to want to take responsibility for your sin.
| Try getting that past judge and jury anywhere in the land. Children are held innocent of these things because they don't know right from wrong. That's why good parents don't punish children forever for their misdeeds, but instead use the opportunity to teach the children to behave better in the future. |
Of course, but that was not the point I was trying to make. No matter who you want to hold responsible the child still disobeyed.
| That's a new one on me. What happened to "render onto Caesar..."? |
Romans 13 explains this.
| On the basis of the secular morality I've come to embrace, derived mostly from my empathy for my fellow humans. |
Ok that’s fine. Do you expect others to have these same beliefs?
| I know that most self-described Christians don't think about these things. |
How can you possible know that?
| You keep on saying the same thing over and over as if it explains the contradiction to not be a contradiction. But you don't know what your future decisions will be, so you can't say that you will make them freely. God already knows what you'll decide next, so how can the choice be free? You can't possibly choose other than what god knows you'll choose. |
I agree with this but God knows what I will choose because I chose it.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 18:12:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Of course, Bible scholars have known for quite some time that the governments in place at the time the books were written had a hand in editing them, so it's no surprise that the Bible says, "obey the government or else."
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Which parts did they edit? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 18:57:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
Wow. Just, wow.
So those poor suckers at North Korea - oh and what about those whose governments make impossible to know about Christianity at all? Damned without even any possibility of being saved. I'm quite sure there are tribes out there who don't even know Jesus is a thing. Damned if you do, damned if you don't... and yet God is loving. And just.
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I agree with the point your making or saying Siberia. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 19:08:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
No. He did not create sin, God did create the conditions. |
Furthermore, god knew his creations would sin before he'd ever created them. How is it their responsibility when he could have said, "no, I won't build them this way?"| I would say God cannot force people to sin. |
No, he just gives the tools to foolish children and then tells them not to use them.  | And God does force some people to disobey it, what with hardened hearts and all. |
Do you have any text to support this? |
Egypt. Pharaoh. I'm sure you know the tale. How about Romans 11:7-8? Or Romans 11:32?| Tim2:26 indicates angels have free will. |
And 2 Samuel 22:11 indicates that the wind has wings.| Also, 2Pet2:4 says angels can sin. |
The whole story of Lucifer says that. I'm saying it's all preplanned by god.| No, they were denied knowledge of evil, and so couldn't make a informed choice. They were coerced by a non-human (without free will) into disobeying a law about which they were made purposefully ignorant of the consequences. They were purposefully set up by god to fail, and thus shoulder none of the responsibility. They were patsies. |
Can you support this with some text? |
Are you kidding me? The whole story says that. God had the knowledge of good and evil locked away in the tree, and creates A&E innocent of that knowledge. How could they possibly understand the consequences of sin without any knowledge of evil? And if they couldn't understand it, they couldn't reasonably be said to have chosen it.| You made the assertion that we are children compared to god but that is not the case. There is nowhere in the Bible that I know of that has this theology you attribute to it. |
Get over it. If God's wisdom is infinite, then every mortal is necessarily like a child in comparison.| You don’t seem to want to take responsibility for your sin. |
Since god doesn't exist, I am sinless.| Of course, but that was not the point I was trying to make. No matter who you want to hold responsible the child still disobeyed. |
But disobeying only matters with regard to responsibility. That's what we've been talking about! Who should be held responsible? The answer is clearly god, since he's the creator of everything. The buck necessarily stops with him.| Ok that’s fine. Do you expect others to have these same beliefs? |
I wouldn't hold them myself if I didn't think they were correct, so yes. Basing one's morality on a book that doesn't even teach morality is a particularly bad mistake, anyway.| I know that most self-described Christians don't think about these things. |
How can you possible know that? |
It's quite obvious in how little they're invested in their religion.| I agree with this but God knows what I will choose because I chose it. |
You haven't chosen it before god knows it. The problem is chronological. God knows what you will choose because you will choose it. You don't actually have a choice. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 19:24:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
| No, they were denied knowledge of evil, and so couldn't make a informed choice. They were coerced by a non-human (without free will) into disobeying a law about which they were made purposefully ignorant of the consequences. They were purposefully set up by god to fail, and thus shoulder none of the responsibility. They were patsies. |
Can you support this with some text?
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Sure.
Gen 2:9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Then,
Gen 3:4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Note that the serpent didn't lie. God said Adam and Eve would die and they did not, just as the serpent said. The serpent said they would know good and evil - implying they didn't know before - and they did, once they ate the fruit.
Also,
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Which pretty much admits that Adam and Even knew nothing of evil and sin until they sinned. For which they were punished as well as their descendants. Forever. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 19:30:20 [Permalink]
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Oh, and on the hardened hearts,
Ex 10:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them
Ex 10:20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.
Oh, this one is fun too:
Joshua 11:20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.
Feel the love! |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 19:42:48 [Permalink]
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| another pointless argument about whether Dave LIKES the Bible. You don't believe in something based on how it jives with your 21st century morality, you believe or not it based on whether it's true. All following discussion should be on that subject. Then after that you can discuss, given it's truth, whether you choose to follow it, or whether you want to burn in a lake of fire. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 19:54:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
Originally posted by Convinced
| No, they were denied knowledge of evil, and so couldn't make a informed choice. They were coerced by a non-human (without free will) into disobeying a law about which they were made purposefully ignorant of the consequences. They were purposefully set up by god to fail, and thus shoulder none of the responsibility. They were patsies. |
Can you support this with some text? |
Sure. |
Yeah, it's impossible that Convinced doesn't know exactly the text I was talking about, but just doesn't see the logical conclusions based upon that text. Like the inescapable conclusion that if one doesn't have knowledge of evil, one cannot possibly understand what "sin" is or comprehend its consequences such that one could reasonably be held responsible for sinning. A sin, under such circumstances, would at worst be accidental, due to ignorance not intent, and so should be punished differently (like the difference between negligent homicide and premeditated murder).
But worse than that: God created the garden, planted the unguarded tree there, granted the snake full access, kept Adam and Eve clueless, knew what was going to happen down to the movement of every hair on Eve's head even before he divided night from day, yet still got petulantly angry and punished humankind forever after. It's the story of an insane, despotic bully and his blameless victims. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 20:09:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
another pointless argument about whether Dave LIKES the Bible. You don't believe in something based on how it jives with your 21st century morality, you believe or not it based on whether it's true. All following discussion should be on that subject. Then after that you can discuss, given it's truth, whether you choose to follow it, or whether you want to burn in a lake of fire. |
You're mistaken. I disbelieve in your god because of the sheer volume of missing evidence. I think the Bible is a terrible guide to morality because of the horror stories contained within which are proclaimed as virtuous.
I don't disbelieve any part of the Bible merely because the god it describes is a monster. I disbelieve those parts which contradict reality (see again, Noah's Flood) and which are internally conflicting (see again, free will and omniscience).
The fact that some of you think that the nasty bully described in the Bible is all about love and mercy actually speaks volumes about you and your character.
If there were scientific evidence in favor of the existence of the evil dictator called "God" I would be forced to accept that He exists, and then I would do everything in my power to stop him from screwing up anyone else's lives (and afterlives).
My moral compass has no bearing on the veracity of the Bible. The fact that the Bible is wrong on many points that are objectively verifiable has no bearing on my morality. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 20:14:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Siberia
Originally posted by Convinced
| No, they were denied knowledge of evil, and so couldn't make a informed choice. They were coerced by a non-human (without free will) into disobeying a law about which they were made purposefully ignorant of the consequences. They were purposefully set up by god to fail, and thus shoulder none of the responsibility. They were patsies. |
Can you support this with some text? |
Sure. |
Yeah, it's impossible that Convinced doesn't know exactly the text I was talking about, but just doesn't see the logical conclusions based upon that text. Like the inescapable conclusion that if one doesn't have knowledge of evil, one cannot possibly understand what "sin" is or comprehend its consequences such that one could reasonably be held responsible for sinning. A sin, under such circumstances, would at worst be accidental, due to ignorance not intent, and so should be punished differently (like the difference between negligent homicide and premeditated murder).
But worse than that: God created the garden, planted the unguarded tree there, granted the snake full access, kept Adam and Eve clueless, knew what was going to happen down to the movement of every hair on Eve's head even before he divided night from day, yet still got petulantly angry and punished humankind forever after. It's the story of an insane, despotic bully and his blameless victims.
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And, you know, reading the actual text makes it pretty obvious how these myths evolved over time. In Genesis, after Adam & Eve eat the fruit, God goes around asking "where are you" - much like all deities at the time, he was pretty anthropomorphic and petty and manipulative. Like the greek, egyptian and other gods, this god can be fooled, be scared by the uppity nature of his creation, jealous, etc. Then as time passes and these ideas phase out, so does his nature: it becomes increasingly mystical and powerful (and less solid, too) as it goes.
Still don't see how God impregnating some random teenager to make a demigod is any different from Zeus impregnating Danaë with a golden rain to make Perseus. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Questions For a Christian
