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Tim Thompson
New Member
USA
36 Posts |
 Posted - 06/21/2013 : 17:50:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Because those are works. Salvation is a gift, you cannot work for it.
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But everything we do is a "work", is it not? If we cannot "work" to earn salvation, but must rely on it as a gift, then what is the value of doing good or obeying God's laws? |
The point of philosophy is to start with something so simple as not to seem worth stating, and to end with something so paradoxical that no one will believe it. -- Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2013 : 19:40:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
Which is why I don't get why people think the Christian doctrine is a moral compass. It's not. Why not genocide an entire people? Ask for forgiveness, repent, and you're saved. |
Seems worse than that, to me: repent, get saved, then massacre an entire nation, and you're still saved. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2013 : 06:10:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Siberia
Originally posted by Convinced
| No, they were denied knowledge of evil, and so couldn't make a informed choice. They were coerced by a non-human (without free will) into disobeying a law about which they were made purposefully ignorant of the consequences. They were purposefully set up by god to fail, and thus shoulder none of the responsibility. They were patsies. |
Can you support this with some text?
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Sure. |
Show me where the text says Adam and Eve are not responsible for their sin.
Gen 2:9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Then,
Gen 3:4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Note that the serpent didn't lie. God said Adam and Eve would die and they did not, just as the serpent said. The serpent said they would know good and evil - implying they didn't know before - and they did, once they ate the fruit. |
Adam and Eve certainly did die. |
They would have died anyway, since they hadn't eaten from the Tree of Life.
We even have the quote that They (Gods? As in many) were specifically concerned about Adam & Eve eating from the Tree of Life.
Or was it that Adam and Eve weren't aware of their mortality until they ate the forbidden fruit? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2013 : 10:54:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Show me where the text says Adam and Eve are not responsible for their sin. |
| Adam and Eve were told not to eat of that one tree. They disobeyed. Show me anywhere in the bible where it says Adam and Eve are not responsible for their sin. Your theology is not supported by the text. |
People can support any crazy concept one can dream up with the bible, from slavery to stoning your own children for the most benign offenses, like disobedience to parents. It's been done for centuries. The Spanish inquisition was justified with the bible and it goes on. Just like that bat shit crazy self proclaimed prophet television conman, she uses the bible to support her garbage interpretations, as you do. You simply brush her off saying she's misinterpreting the bible wrong and she says she's not. How do you or her, how do we, determine what is right? Do you really suggest we can all be right, with such differences?
Explain to me how it is that you and I are held responsible for what Adan and Eve did without your "text". If the consequences from their act is moral, they are not moral just because it's in the bible, it's moral whether on not it's in the bible. Explain the morality of innocent people being held to the death penalty for the actions of others without your bible. Thinking "I don't know or I can't" won't get it because you (christians) claim to KNOW so much about the nature of their God and what that God wants as you have asserted on so many other points.
What's going on here is Christians refuse to acknowledge their own cognitive dissonance to the immorality that their God exhibits in the Holy Bible and they refuse to address that the cognitive dissonance with ALL the immoral instruction from the GOD they worship. You all are left picking and choosing what will and will not follow because you all can see least some of the conflicts and refuse to march along with 100% of what the Bible teaches.
This is how God and christians see reality. If you disagree, point out what I'm not getting, try without the Bible, try using logic and reason. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 16:59:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by ThorGoLucky
What sin? Are you talking about the man-made concept of original sin, where we're all inherently corrupted magically? Show me the credible evidence. |
You do have a sin nature but you have also broken every single one of the commandments. That is the sin I am talking about. |
Your quaint ancient Jewish laws don't apply to me, especially the first "commandment" that is trumped by the US Constitution's first amendment.
| How can you measure sin between people objectively? |
Why do you want to measure sin between people? God compares what you do to his law and determines if you are guilty of not.
| Sin = homeopathy: There's nothing to it. A man-made fabrication. Pathetic. |
Do you do wrong?
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Breaking your mostly-outmoded man-made laws is a badge of honor, except of course when it would be unethical. Our evolved capacity of empathy (don't do to others as you wouldn't want them to do to you) is a root of doing the right thing that predates all religions that still linger today.
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 06:46:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Do kids who die while being born get a pass into Heaven? |
I believe the Bible implicitly says they do go to heaven but through the work of Christ just like everyone else. However this is a topic that could go on forever, it does not explicitly say they do.
| And for three out of the four examples you just gave, an eternity in Hell is waaaaay overkill as a punishment. |
You said earlier that you understood sin but this comment suggests to me you don’t.
| If it weren't for your faith, would you still accept the descriptions of moral truth in the Bible as useful? |
Before I became a Christian I did not use the Bible as a basis for my morality.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 06:47:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Do you do wrong? |
Not every wrong is a sin.
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Ok, but you have sinned as described in the Bible right? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 06:59:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Tim Thompson
Originally posted by Convinced
Because those are works. Salvation is a gift, you cannot work for it.
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But everything we do is a "work", is it not? If we cannot "work" to earn salvation, but must rely on it as a gift, then what is the value of doing good or obeying God's laws?
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Let me rephrase what I said. I should have been clearer. You do get into heaven base on works. Jesus says you must be perfect, obeying all Gods laws and do works out of pure devotion to God. The problem is nobody can do works perfectly, we all sin, have selfish motives etc. So we are going to be judged based on our works. That is why Jesus came. He died for your sins and if you repent and believe your sins are transferred to Him and His righteousness and good works are transferred to you. He sees your works as if you did them perfectly. So yes everyone gets into heaven based on works, but they are the works of Jesus.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 07:00:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Seems worse than that, to me: repent, get saved, then massacre an entire nation, and you're still saved.
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This is not what the Bible says at all. It actually says the opposite. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 07:02:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Do you do wrong? |
Not every wrong is a sin.
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You know, if ANY wrong is a sin, and they are equally bad, my casual daydreams about Luka Sulic are as bad as massacring an entire nation.
Which is why I don't get why people think the Christian doctrine is a moral compass. It's not. Why not genocide an entire people? Ask for forgiveness, repent, and you're saved.
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Yes, you can go to heaven even if you have committed genocide in the past. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 07:43:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
This is not what the Bible says at all. It actually says the opposite. |
So the numerous "saved once, saved always" people are wrong in your view? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 09:06:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Let me rephrase what I said. I should have been clearer. You do get into heaven base on works. |
There is just no way you can have it both ways when trying to explain what you believe, beyond inside your own brain. Which is what I see you doing. How does anyone get to heaven on good works if they are of any other religion besides christian? If your dogma is no one get's to heaven without accepting Jesus, than nobody can get into heaven base on works because all the good works in the world will get no one into heaven w/o Jesus (pass the hat). | Jesus says you must be perfect, obeying all Gods laws and do works out of pure devotion to God. The problem is nobody can do works perfectly, we all sin, have selfish motives etc. |
So Jesus aka God, says we must be perfect but he didn't make us perfect. Oh shit God kind of stacked the deck against us there. Like expecting us to fly and not give us wings. If I'm getting what you just tried to clarify, so much for intelligent anything coming from God or God's ability to have any of his plans work out. This God has more than once tried to restart this train wreck of a plan that's been going off the rails from the very beginning. No matter how many times he has tried to fix it.
Like the drowning of every single living land creature, except those on the ark. That turned out to be a waste of time for all the long term good it did. Then sending Jesus down but that didn't go so good either so now Jesus has to come back again, to get that right. Come to think of it what right do we have to believe, if past events are any indication of God ability to devise a workable plan, that when Jesus does comes back again that it will work out as God plans?
Do you think you can at least try to see that there are so many holes in this dogma that maybe, just maybe this dogma just doesn't jive? If you care that what you believe is the truth, which I'm assuming you do, can't you see all these contradictions indicate that some smells very bad. I would say it stinks to high heaven.
You mean just christians, right? ,,,going to be judged based on our works. That is why Jesus came. He died for your sins and if you repent and believe your sins are transferred to Him and His righteousness and good works are transferred to you. He sees your works as if you did them perfectly. So yes everyone gets into heaven based on works, but they are the works of Jesus.
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You've never addressed this in spite of it being brought up many times, how is it that someone else can be blamed for the sins of others? How someone else can pay for the sins of others? If God wanted to forgive us for our sins why did he have to torture his own innocent son before he would forgive, instead of just forgiving us? |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
| Edited by - sailingsoul on 06/25/2013 09:09:51 |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 09:07:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
We even have the quote that They (Gods? As in many) were specifically concerned about Adam & Eve eating from the Tree of Life.
Or was it that Adam and Eve weren't aware of their mortality until they ate the forbidden fruit?
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I don't see anywhere in the text where it says they did not eat from the tree of life until after they sinned and were kicked out of the garden. 2:15-17 says they could eat of any tree except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They could have eaten of the tree of life to never die. Rev 2:7 indicates the tree of life will be in heaven and people will be sustained by it.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 09:34:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
People can support any crazy concept one can dream up with the bible, from slavery to stoning your own children for the most benign offenses, like disobedience to parents. It's been done for centuries. The Spanish inquisition was justified with the bible and it goes on. Just like that bat shit crazy self proclaimed prophet television conman, she uses the bible to support her garbage interpretations, as you do. You simply brush her off saying she's misinterpreting the bible wrong and she says she's not. How do you or her, how do we, determine what is right? Do you really suggest we can all be right, with such differences? |
I agree that any document not just the Bible can be interpreted numerous ways but that does not mean it does not have a specific meaning. Look at the US constitution, conservatives and liberals read the same text and come to different conclusions mostly based on what they want it to say. But the writers of the constitution had a specific meaning in mind when they wrote the text. Same for the Bible. I made the point before that only about 13% of the professed Christians in America believe even the clear and basic doctrines of the Bible. I try my best to read in context what the text says and create my theology and doctrines accordingly, keeping what I want it to say out of it.
| Explain to me how it is that you and I are held responsible for what Adan and Eve did without your "text". If the consequences from their act is moral, they are not moral just because it's in the bible, it's moral whether on not it's in the bible. Explain the morality of innocent people being held to the death penalty for the actions of others without your bible. Thinking "I don't know or I can't" won't get it because you (christians) claim to KNOW so much about the nature of their God and what that God wants as you have asserted on so many other points. |
You and I are not responsible for what they did. You are responsible for what you do. Your sin condemns you not what Adam and Eve did. I cannot explain universal morality aside from God. You get your morality form inside you, your own thoughts and feelings. Why should they apply to anyone else? That seems unethical to me.
| What's going on here is Christians refuse to acknowledge their own cognitive dissonance to the immorality that their God exhibits in the Holy Bible and they refuse to address that the cognitive dissonance with ALL the immoral instruction from the GOD they worship. You all are left picking and choosing what will and will not follow because you all can see least some of the conflicts and refuse to march along with 100% of what the Bible teaches. |
Nobody can follow all what the Bible teaches since it commands us to be perfect in all we do, thought and deed. That said, I do try to follow its teachings, and yes I eat shellfish and do not stone adulterers.
| This is how God and christians see reality. If you disagree, point out what I'm not getting, try without the Bible, try using logic and reason. |
This is not the correct theology. No deities involved here. No one sinned against a just and holy God that is eternal. In this case the son was a sinner just like the father so he could not have been punished for the “sin” of wearing red shoes. Who gets punished for the sons sins? This is not even close to Biblical theology.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2013 : 11:20:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
There is just no way you can have it both ways when trying to explain what you believe, beyond inside your own brain. Which is what I see you doing. How does anyone get to heaven on good works if they are of any other religion besides christian? If your dogma is no one get's to heaven without accepting Jesus, than nobody can get into heaven base on works because all the good works in the world will get no one into heaven w/o Jesus (pass the hat). |
I think you have it. Everyone is judged on either their works or the works of Jesus. I am not having it both ways.
| So Jesus aka God, says we must be perfect but he didn't make us perfect. Oh shit God kind of stacked the deck against us there. Like expecting us to fly and not give us wings. If I'm getting what you just tried to clarify, so much for intelligent anything coming from God or God's ability to have any of his plans work out. This God has more than once tried to restart this train wreck of a plan that's been going off the rails from the very beginning. No matter how many times he has tried to fix it. |
| Like the drowning of every single living land creature, except those on the ark. That turned out to be a waste of time for all the long term good it did. Then sending Jesus down but that didn't go so good either so now Jesus has to come back again, to get that right. Come to think of it what right do we have to believe, if past events are any indication of God ability to devise a workable plan, that when Jesus does comes back again that it will work out as God plans? |
I think Gods plan of redemption has worked out pretty well. God has given all of humanity a gift in what Jesus did on the cross. Your sins can be forgiven if you repent and believe.
| You've never addressed this in spite of it being brought up many times, how is it that someone else can be blamed for the sins of others? How someone else can pay for the sins of others? If God wanted to forgive us for our sins why did he have to torture his own innocent son before he would forgive, instead of just forgiving us? |
A just God cannot do that. Would it be just for an earthly judge to let a murderer go with no punishment for that person? When someone is saved it is not just Jesus taking the punishment for your sin. It is as if Jesus committed the sin and you never had. God looks at you as perfect because you have been given a perfect life, the life Jesus lived. It is as if you never committed the sin, in fact you never did. Jesus committed them and then paid the right punishment for it, death. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Questions For a Christian
