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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2013 : 13:42:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
People that are not christians should not be called christians. And of course there are Catholics that are christians but try to square most of the CCC with the Bible and it cannot be done. |
You realize that some Catholics say the same about you, yes?
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Yes, but I can support my beliefs from the Bible, they cannot. Popes, works salvation, sainthood, indulgences, purgatory and on and on cannot be found in the bible. It is found in their uninspired catechism. However, what makes them non christian is their belief in works for salvation. Not all Catholics believe this but the official Catholic doctrine states this. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2013 : 14:15:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Yes, but I can support my beliefs from the Bible, they cannot. |
Know your audience: you're trying to convince a bunch of (mostly) atheists that you're on firmer theological footing than the Catholics, and are again using a book with no credibility (for us, your audience) to support that position. If the book is wrong, then how closely you keep to its rules doesn't really matter, does it? If Jesus never existed, then who is Christian and who isn't is like arguing over which of two emperors' invisible suits are finer.| However, what makes them non christian is their belief in works for salvation. Not all Catholics believe this but the official Catholic doctrine states this. |
Where, exactly? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2013 : 07:16:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Yes, but I can support my beliefs from the Bible, they cannot. |
Know your audience: you're trying to convince a bunch of (mostly) atheists that you're on firmer theological footing than the Catholics, and are again using a book with no credibility (for us, your audience) to support that position. If the book is wrong, then how closely you keep to its rules doesn't really matter, does it? If Jesus never existed, then who is Christian and who isn't is like arguing over which of two emperors' invisible suits are finer. |
It does not matter if you believe the book. You can still read the Bible and the CCC and determine if they agree of not.
| However, what makes them non christian is their belief in works for salvation. Not all Catholics believe this but the official Catholic doctrine states this. |
Where, exactly?
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2068 - The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2013 : 09:53:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
It does not matter if you believe the book. You can still read the Bible and the CCC and determine if they agree of not. |
They're both invisible garments. Why should I care whether they agree or not?| However, what makes them non christian is their belief in works for salvation. Not all Catholics believe this but the official Catholic doctrine states this. |
Where, exactly? |
2068 - The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments." |
Faith and works, it seems. So the Catholics are saying that not only do you have to have faith that Jesus redeemed your sins, you have to try to avoid sinning. Whereas you say what? That you have to have that same faith, and that saved people won't willfully sin.
How are these things different? Baptism, I guess. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2013 : 12:05:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Faith and works, it seems. So the Catholics are saying that not only do you have to have faith that Jesus redeemed your sins, you have to try to avoid sinning. Whereas you say what? That you have to have that same faith, and that saved people won't willfully sin.
How are these things different? Baptism, I guess.
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The way I understand the Catholic gospel is that you need faith and good works including keeping the commandments to be saved. But I can never determine what they mean by that. How many good works do you need to be saved? How can you ever know? I guess they have different types of sin and some can be atoned for in purgatory without Christ.
I do know that their mass is to order Jesus to come down to earth and be sacrificed again and again for the forgiveness of sins in contradiction to Hebrews chapter 9.
I believe we are saved through faith and repentance and not works.
Romans 3: 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Romans 4: What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Romans 11: So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Galatians 2: We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 3 (All of it)
Ephesians 2: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 12:55:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Then what does it matter if saved people sin or not?
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The commands Jesus gave is to love your neighbor and love god (Mt 22:36-40). He also said if you love me you will keep my commands (Jn 14:15). Christians will follow his commands if they are saved, however, they will still sin. Christians don't as a pattern in life willfully sin but sin when they don't want to. It matters because of the motivation behind it. If you don't care about sin then you are most likely a false convert. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2013 : 13:40:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Then what does it matter if saved people sin or not?
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The commands Jesus gave is to love your neighbor and love god (Mt 22:36-40). |
He said to love your neighbor as you love yourself, I suppose giving narcissistic masochists free reign to harm their neighbors and sin all over the place.
I've seen Bible-based apologetics, too, that "neighbor" only referred to other Christians, such that hating on people of other religions is completely acceptable.| He also said if you love me you will keep my commands (Jn 14:15). |
But he fulfilled the law, so it no longer needs to be followed. Doesn't that include the "greatest" commandments? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2013 : 09:27:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Then what does it matter if saved people sin or not?
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The commands Jesus gave is to love your neighbor and love god (Mt 22:36-40). |
He said to love your neighbor as you love yourself, I suppose giving narcissistic masochists free reign to harm their neighbors and sin all over the place. |
I don't think that is what he was getting at in light of other scripture.
| I've seen Bible-based apologetics, too, that "neighbor" only referred to other Christians, such that hating on people of other religions is completely acceptable. |
That is a hard case to make. Taking into account the entire bible this interpretation cannot be supported. The words written have a specific meaning and a lot of christians read into the bible what they want it to say, the corect way is to read out of the text what it says.
| He also said if you love me you will keep my commands (Jn 14:15). |
But he fulfilled the law, so it no longer needs to be followed. Doesn't that include the "greatest" commandments?
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Yes. Bottom line is if you are saved you will not want to sin but you still will sin. If you don't care about your sin or plan on doing sinful things then you are probably not saved. To say a christian can willingly commit murder and be forgiven for that does not make sense. They can be forgiven when they are saved. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2013 : 10:50:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Yes. Bottom line is if you are saved you will not want to sin but you still will sin. If you don't care about your sin or plan on doing sinful things then you are probably not saved. |
This makes no sense. If Jesus fulfilled the law so that it no longer needs to be followed, then how can not following it be a sin?
Does the person need to know that what they're planning on doing is a sin? If someone says, "hey, this cotton dress will look awesome with that linen jacket," but is totally ignorant of the commandment against wearing clothes spun from two different fibers, are they planning on sinning? Or would you say that, due to their ignorance of the law, they obviously don't care about sinning? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2013 : 10:53:07 [Permalink]
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| lol |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Victories for equality
