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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
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Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2013 : 23:23:12 [Permalink]
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Shermer....
You know when people say atheists have no moral compass and no foundation for ethics? They probably imagine that all atheists walk around thinking "Haha, there's no God, as long as I never get caught by the police, I can get away with anything because there's no afterlife and no judgement mwhahahah". Maybe Shermer is actually that guy. He strikes me as kind of a narcissist. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
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Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2013 : 23:52:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Greta Christina: On Being Disillusioned By Heroes… or, No, I Am Not Bloody Well Happy to Hear Horrible Things About the People I Admired...In many discussions about reports of atheist/ skeptical leaders committing seriously unethical behavior, this trope has come up again and again: “You just want to believe these reports! You were already biased against these people, and you’ll believe anything that confirms what you want to believe! You want to believe that Richard Dawkins blackballed Rebecca Watson from speaking at the Reason Rally! You want to believe that Lawrence Krauss has sexually harassed people at conferences! You want to believe that Michael Shermer committed rape! You’re only seeing what you want to see!”...
. . .
| From the limited infomation I have, I agree with Greta Christina on most of what she wrote.
I think she went overboard in accusing Richard Dawkins of "racism" for this tweeted harangues on the poor showing of scientific achievement among Muslims. Her go-to reference in her original article was that by Tom Chivers. Chivers, at the end of his comments answered the "racism" question somewhat doubtfully: "Is he being racist? Maybe not, depending on how narrowly you define it. But whatever he's being, it's not nice, and it certainly isn't advancing the various causes of secularism, atheism or everyone just bloody getting along."
One might argue with Chivers that it is not beyond the pale for an atheist not to want to see "everyone just bloody getting along," while a major and appalling religion gets a free ride. But Chivers, in Christina's "racism" reference, is not quite calling Dawkins out as a racist.
Christina nevertheless inflates Chivers' more moderated (one might even say "more weaselly") criticism of Dawkins to the idea of Dawkins being "appallingly racist," as though it were a done deal.
As I say, I don't see other problems with that essay by Greta Christina. I don't utterly condemn her for the one part I disagree with, serious as that is. We all have moments when we overstate things. (Just look to my previous comments in this thread for horrible examples of this)
But we must be careful not to get carried away, especially with false accusations of racism, and even more especially when such accusations may taint by association the better considered criticisms in the same omnibus essay. As skeptics, we should be able to say, "I was wrong. I apologize." |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/07/2013 03:00:49 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
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Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2013 : 03:49:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Dave W.
Greta Christina: On Being Disillusioned By Heroes… or, No, I Am Not Bloody Well Happy to Hear Horrible Things About the People I Admired...In many discussions about reports of atheist/ skeptical leaders committing seriously unethical behavior, this trope has come up again and again: “You just want to believe these reports! You were already biased against these people, and you’ll believe anything that confirms what you want to believe! You want to believe that Richard Dawkins blackballed Rebecca Watson from speaking at the Reason Rally! You want to believe that Lawrence Krauss has sexually harassed people at conferences! You want to believe that Michael Shermer committed rape! You’re only seeing what you want to see!”...
. . .
| From the limited infomation I have, I agree with Greta Christina on most of what she wrote.
I think she went overboard in accusing Richard Dawkins of "racism" for this tweeted harangues on the poor showing of scientific achievement among Muslims. Her go-to reference in her original article was that by Tom Chivers. Chivers, at the end of his comments answered the "racism" question somewhat doubtfully: "Is he being racist? Maybe not, depending on how narrowly you define it. But whatever he's being, it's not nice, and it certainly isn't advancing the various causes of secularism, atheism or everyone just bloody getting along."
One might argue with Chivers that it is not beyond the pale for an atheist not to want to see "everyone just bloody getting along," while a major and appalling religion gets a free ride. But Chivers, in Christina's "racism" reference, is not quite calling Dawkins out as a racist.
Christina nevertheless inflates Chivers' more moderated (one might even say "more weaselly") criticism of Dawkins to the idea of Dawkins being "appallingly racist," as though it were a done deal.
As I say, I don't see other problems with that essay by Greta Christina. I don't utterly condemn her for the one part I disagree with, serious as that is. We all have moments when we overstate things. (Just look to my previous comments in this thread for horrible examples of this)
But we must be careful not to get carried away, especially with false accusations of racism, and even more especially when such accusations may taint by association the better considered criticisms in the same omnibus essay. As skeptics, we should be able to say, "I was wrong. I apologize."
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There may be more to it than that. Dawkins has tweeted whole streams of messages that are not just critical of Islam, but downright islamophic. Going in the Pat Condell corner of islamophobic, which is definitely racist. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.' -Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
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Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2013 : 05:17:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
There may be more to it than that. Dawkins has tweeted whole streams of messages that are not just critical of Islam, but downright islamophic. Going in the Pat Condell corner of islamophobic, which is definitely racist. | Could you, Tom (or someone else), please link to some of these? I fear I've been out of this fray more than in it. The Dawkins tweets quoted by Chivers didn't in themselves make such an impression to me. But I certainly haven't been reading everything Dawkins has said on the subject.
I do agree with you that Pat Condell, once an atheist humorist who was one of my must-see vloggers, is certainly now an islamaphobe. Condell is playing into the hands of the British and European far right. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
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Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2013 : 20:50:30 [Permalink]
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Islam is not a race. The problems Dawkins has with Muslims is due to their indoctrination, not due to their racial background. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
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Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2013 : 12:51:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Islam is not a race. The problems Dawkins has with Muslims is due to their indoctrination, not due to their racial background.
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A genuine distrust and a well founded fear of what Islam could do to a free society makes me weary of that religion. Especially since I see how easily it could be corrupted to serve evil despots (read imams and other islamic ideologues).
Can I be considered paranoid if they really are out to get me?
Will I be considered an islamophobe if I said Islam is a plague on this planet and I'd prefer to see Islam eradicated from the face of the planet?
How many Islamic countries are having their politics radicalized by the more fanatic part of their religion? Even "moderates" Muslims in Sweden are ready to throw freedom of speech and expression under the bus in order to protect them from getting exposed to (well founded) "offensive" criticism of their religion. Such idiots aren't welcome in the kind of country I want to live.
Sorry for ranting about this, I just felt the need to get it off my chest.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..." Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
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Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2013 : 13:34:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Islam is not a race. The problems Dawkins has with Muslims is due to their indoctrination, not due to their racial background.
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A genuine distrust and a well founded fear of what Islam could do to a free society makes me weary of that religion. Especially since I see how easily it could be corrupted to serve evil despots (read imams and other islamic ideologues).
Can I be considered paranoid if they really are out to get me?
Will I be considered an islamophobe if I said Islam is a plague on this planet and I'd prefer to see Islam eradicated from the face of the planet?
How many Islamic countries are having their politics radicalized by the more fanatic part of their religion? Even "moderates" Muslims in Sweden are ready to throw freedom of speech and expression under the bus in order to protect them from getting exposed to (well founded) "offensive" criticism of their religion. Such idiots aren't welcome in the kind of country I want to live.
Sorry for ranting about this, I just felt the need to get it off my chest.
| I hadn't looked at it that way, but I see what you're saying, Mab and OFfC. I personally don't see a qualitative difference in kind between abusive Christians and abusive Muslims. But the degree of danger between the two groups of belivers is pretty vast, quantitatively. Christian suicide bombers are scarce on the ground. A psychotic few might assassinate abortion doctors, but they are, at least rare.
Is "islamophobia" really a thing? And if so, is it a bad thing if it is reasoned and avoids racism? I still feel Condell goes too far in his hatred, but even with him, it's hard to see where his statements of fact are wrong. Historically, Christianity was just as large, dangerous and vicious as the Islamist movement and its "moderate" enablers are today. Does making that observation make one a "christianophobe" also? |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
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Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2013 : 18:50:43 [Permalink]
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An Islamophobe is still not a racist. Arguably some religions are also a race, e.g. Judaism, because they have historically been a fairly insular religious group, but personally I don't subscribe to that, any religion which allows conversion cannot be considered a race. It could be argued that members of a particular religion generally belong to a certain racial group, but Islam is probably one of the worst examples of this. It's a group which includes, Middle Eastern, White European, North African, Sub Saharan, South Asian, and lets not forget it's largest group, Indonesian.
The correct word would be prejudiced, not racist. If a dislike or fear of a particular group is unjustified, it is a form of prejudice.
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Edited by - On fire for Christ on 09/08/2013 19:02:23 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
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Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2013 : 02:28:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
. . .
The correct word would be prejudiced, not racist. If a dislike or fear of a particular group is unjustified, it is a form of prejudice.
| Well put. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
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Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2013 : 06:05:53 [Permalink]
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If the fear is severe and totally irrational, then I have no problem calling it a phobia. But what if the criticism is well founded? I haven't read Dawkin's tweets, so I have no opinion on those, but most of his criticisms on Christianity have been reasonable.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..." Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq: Send them unarmed civilians for target practice.. Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
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USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2013 : 16:30:14 [Permalink]
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A comment on Greta's disillusionment post:“____ was not the first time I heard about ____” I think this is a big part of why so many non-misogynists* are struggling with this whole issue. For many insiders, this is the culmination of something that’s been brewing for years. For most outsiders, it’s seemed to come out of nowhere. Yeah there’ve been ripples, but nothing on this scale, so they were easy to ignore or treat as outliers rather than part of a larger pattern. So now they’re effectively having to deal with it all at once.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
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USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2013 : 20:35:13 [Permalink]
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Elyse Anders Tweets:DJ Grothe is threatening a defamation suit against the org I founded bc @SashaPixlee said he sucks at rape jokes... See the Sept 9 update to the timeline for more links, but it seems that Sasha's post is enabling DJ to threaten the publication of a vaccination study, because fee-fees. Brilliant PR move, DJ. Did you get advice from Shermer's lawyer? :Headdesk: |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
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USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2013 : 13:30:08 [Permalink]
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Elyse Anders offers more details:The Women Thinking partnered up with the JREF in December of 2010 to do vaccine outreach research as part of the Hug Me, I’m Vaccinated campaign. Since we were and are a small organization without the resources to take on such a project, we asked the JREF to fund it. They agreed, and gave us ~$5,000 to travel and conduct surveys around the country and for that, they would publish and promote the research for us. Now, almost three years later the research is finished. The report is complete thanks to a tireless effort by the WTinc board, especially Jamie Bernstein. The research has been delivered to the JREF and peer reviewed. Today, it is essentially ready to be published, and has been for over a year. But right now, Grothe is using a blog post about being bad at jokes as a reason to hold up publishing this work that we were planning on using to save lives. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
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USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2013 : 13:41:11 [Permalink]
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Unbelievable times infinity. Will Richard Dawkins ever make the news again in a good way?[Dawkins] said that he could not condemn the “mild paedophilia” he experienced at boarding school. “I am very conscious that you can’t condemn people of an earlier era by the standards of ours,” he says in an interview published today in The Times Magazine.
“Just as we don’t look back at the 18th and 19th centuries and condemn people for racism in the same way as we would condemn a modern person for racism, I look back a few decades to my childhood and see things like caning, like mild paedophilia, and can’t find it in me to condemn it by the same standards as I or anyone would today.”
Professor Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist, describes in a new autobiography how a master at his Salisbury prep school “pulled me on to his knee and put his hand inside my shorts”. He writes that the episode was “extremely disagreeable” and that other boys were molested by the same teacher, but concludes: “I don’t think he did any of us any lasting damage.” Greta Christina:It sickens me to think of how statements like this contribute to the shaming and silencing of sexual abuse victims — especially the victims of sexual abuse in childhood. Dawkins is entirely entitled to express his own experience with sexual abuse however he experienced it — but he is absolutely not entitled to tell other victims that their abuse “didn’t do any lasting damage.”
And it appalls me to think that the world will see this as representative of the atheist community — and will use it as yet another example of how atheists have no morality. (The story is already up at the Washington Post as well as the Times of London.) She also notes that there is a petition:We, the undersigned atheists, agnostics, humanists, freethinkers, and other non-believers, hereby condemn Richard Dawkins' continued comments trivializing what he termed 'mild' sexual abuse of children. Dr. Dawkins is seen by many as a representative of the atheist community -- but when it comes to his dismissive comments on the incredibly serious topic of sexual abuse, the atheist community emphatically does not stand with him. Also, Alex Gabriel:It’s one thing being reckless, unguarded or imprecise, as all of us occasionally are; it’s another thought entirely, and frankly skull-jangling, that someone paid for years as a communicator with the public, since then a bestselling global author and media fixture, could put their foot so absolutely firmly in their mouth. No doubt this too will end in an extensive, hyperdefensive explanatory blog post – but how could anyone make these remarks and not foresee a PR storm? Also, PZ Myers:Just when did it stop being OK for acquaintances to put their hands inside Richard Dawkins shorts? I presume it would be an utterly intolerable act now, of course — at what age do the contents of childrens’ pants stop being public property? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail) Evidently, I rock! Why not question something for a change? Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
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USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2013 : 18:48:22 [Permalink]
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I don't approve of Dawkins thinking here, though I do agree that within reason, one eras morals can't be used to judge other eras just like some customs are culture specific. Still, Dawkins shouldn't assume that pediphilia was ever the norm when he went to school, or that the teacher wouldn't have had his ass handed to him if higher ups had known about it. One would hope that would have been the case, but who knows? In any case he isn't that fucking old and the England he grew up in isn't ancient Rome. He also shouldn't assume that because he feels no lasting damage, that lasting damage wasn't the result of the violation to other kids.
That said, I agree with everyone but Myers. He created a strawman from what Dawkins said. Dawkins did say, "...and can’t find it in me to condemn it by the same standards as I or anyone would today.” In other words, he wouldn't tolerate it today.
Myers said: ...at what age do the contents of childrens’ pants stop being public property? That's a misrepresentation of what Dawkins said even by implication.
Now you probably think I'm just picking on Myers by looking for fault. I'm not. I don't care whose name it would have been next to the Myers quote, it would still be a strawman and I would have pointed it out. Since I agree with everyone else, no big thing I guess. But hey. And yeah. Dawkins is way out of line. Weirdly so. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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