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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 10/19/2013 : 02:11:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
If you know when it is not a child then when is it a child?
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When it stopped being a toddler?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2013 : 11:02:16 [Permalink]
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I'm against forcing women to give birth against their will.  |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 09:02:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Kil
Right! And it should also be mentioned that making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortions. It just makes them less safe.
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This does not justify killing children.
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Luckily, I'm not aware of anyone advocating killing children.
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How about Peter Singer, Michael Tooley or John Harris who make cases for after birth abortions as they call them.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 09:07:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Kil
That's 67,000 women dead for a law that does nothing but satisfy your religiously based convictions. Fair exchange? |
I don't want anyone to die from an abortion including the unborn. |
Yes. But the result of making abortion illegal will mean even more people will die. Including lots of would be mothers.
In any case, we should not be making laws based on a segment of the populations religious convictions. |
Religious people are not the only ones pro life.
What they should do is not have abortions if that's how they feel.
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So why not apply this to everything such as health insurance for example? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 09:10:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
So why not apply this to everything such as health insurance for example? |
Because everyone needs health care at some point in their lives. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 12:19:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
There's a difference between government and governance. The only things I would change about our government would be to eliminate the Electoral College and mandate top-three voting for all public positions, thus ensuring that third-party candidates have a fair shot. I might also ensure that corporations are no longer considered people with regard to the Bill of Rights. |
This is fine with me. I dont care either way. I no longer look to the government for answers. It has none. The government has been working to reduce poverty for what 60 years? The poverty rate today is about what it was in the 1960s.
| What I would change about our governance is to mandate enough civics classes that our citizenry demands representatives who are smart, informed, honest and interested in actually solving problems. Who one might like to have a beer with is a stupid, anti-intellectual standard for voting, and breeds a governing body filled with thugs, self-aggrandizers and people who are wildly ignorant of the reality of the world about which they must create policy and law. If we want the United States of America to be exceptional, then we need to elect competent, elite politicians, not everymen drinking buddies. While most people want us to be top dog on the planet, the way they vote has us right on track for mediocrity. |
More government mandates. Shouldnt people be free to be uninformed?
| The fundamental rights of privacy and self-determination trump all possible secular governmental interests in abortion. (Basing policy on sectarian religious ideas is, of course, unconstitutional.) |
Yet you advocate required health insurance and required civics classes.
| But look at that, I can't even personally get an abortion, but these rights are so important that I won't accept the grandest of bribes for them. How about you? What rights that you personally exercise would you be willing to give up in return for an abortion rate of zero? If I could snap my fingers and end all abortions tomorow, would you... blaspheme against the Holy Spirit? ...Collect and burn Bibles? ...Help put all Christians in internment camps in Alaska? |
No. But I would not work against any laws if they were being debated. I would take the consequences of breaking these laws you have suggested.
| Then you are in favor of a policy that conflicts with your stated goal, since ignorance of sex and contraception leads to unwanted pregnancies for which abortions will be sought. To put it in your terms, allowing people to opt out of sex-ed leads to the killing of children. |
I am for sex education that will reduce unwanted pregnancy. I am reluctant to have the government teach my child anything they want without my knowledge or approval. However, I will think about this point.
| Do you think this stigma still exists? |
Yes, and the younger a woman is, the more the stigma is felt. Actually, the real stigma that needs to be eliminated is about sex. If a teen doesn't feel comfortable telling her parents that she's become sexually active, then she can't seek guidance from them and is more likely to make simple mistakes which could lead to seeking an abortion (which, if she can't afford it on her own, may be more dangerous than the one her parents could help her finance). But there are idiotic cultural mores that have been at work for decades to ensure that abstaining girls are insulted as prudes (while sexual girls are insulted as sluts), but parents of girls are expected to react with shock/horror at the merest hint of an idea that their daughter is doing what they themselves probably did. |
I mostly agree with this.
| Great! Secularize and nationalize that system, and you'll really be onto something! |
When you nationalize and secularize any system it is bound to fail.
| Abolition is impossible, but if it weren't, it would be cruel. You should be seeking a rational minimization of the practice instead of a zero-tolerance nightmare. |
So you want me to just want less children killed.
| By the way, the 3,300/day figure is obviously outdated. In 2009, there were 784,507 reported abortions, or only 2,149/day. |
If there is one abortion performed it is morally wrong.
| Of course, none of these numbers compares to god's rate either during the Flood or in wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah. Hell, god allowed 2.5 million people to die in 2008 in the U.S. alone, a rate of 6,849/day. Of course, god alone holds the power of life and death, so it must be god's will for all those abortions to happen, no? Certainly no abortion doctor can contravene the will of god... |
Just because god does something, does not mean that we have the right to do the same.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 12:21:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
If you know when it is not a child then when is it a child?
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When it stopped being a toddler?
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What? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 12:24:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by ThorGoLucky
I'm against forcing women to give birth against their will.
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Are you also against forcing women to buy healthcare insurance?
I am against women knowingly or unknowingly killing their children. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 12:51:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
So why not apply this to everything such as health insurance for example? |
Because everyone needs health care at some point in their lives.
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Why don't you let everyone decide for themselves what they need? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 13:27:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
If you know when it is not a child then when is it a child?
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When it stopped being a toddler?
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What?
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Pretty simple here.
When a child stops being a toddler, it becomes an adolecent. After that, an adult.
At each stage, the being in question gains more rights and responsibilities. A child has few rights. An adolecent has more and finally an adult has all the rights and responsibilities that you or I have. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 16:06:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
If you know when it is not a child then when is it a child?
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When it stopped being a toddler?
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What?
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I was trying to point out that you have a pretty weird idea about what the word "child" means. Trying to frame an argument using your own made up definition is not really honest.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 18:31:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Shouldnt people be free to be uninformed?
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Sure, but I just wish they would just be honest with themselves. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 19:19:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
What I would change about our governance is to mandate enough civics classes that our citizenry demands representatives who are smart, informed, honest and interested in actually solving problems. Who one might like to have a beer with is a stupid, anti-intellectual standard for voting, and breeds a governing body filled with thugs, self-aggrandizers and people who are wildly ignorant of the reality of the world about which they must create policy and law. If we want the United States of America to be exceptional, then we need to elect competent, elite politicians, not everymen drinking buddies. While most people want us to be top dog on the planet, the way they vote has us right on track for mediocrity. |
More government mandates. Shouldnt people be free to be uninformed? |
Not when they're children, no. And yes, I think I know better than their parents if their parents think it's good for them to remain uninformed. I entirely favor government mandates for children to go to school, including both sex ed and civics to go with their reading and mathematics.
No moral position should be taken at all in the sex ed material (and none typically is -- if it was, I may well agree). It's just knowledge, which is why I cannot fathom why parents oppose it. It shows how the reproductive system works, how to use contraception, what STDs are, statistics on the effectiveness of different contraceptives, etc. How does knowing this cause anyone any harm?
Their parents are obviously able to give guidance on the moral questions, but to actively block them from learning completely innocuous, neutral information seems no better than actively blocking any other educational opportunity. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 10/21/2013 19:21:18 |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 20:17:29 [Permalink]
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Looks like being serious is over with this.Originally posted by Convinced
If you know when it is not a child then when is it a child?
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The other answers so far should have indicated to you just how ridiculous that question is. I refuse to pretend that your being or should be taken serious with that. If your going to lampoon with that question then let's go.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I was trying to point out that you have a pretty weird idea about what the word "child" means. Trying to frame an argument using your own made up definition is not really honest.
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OK Doc, nothing weird at all that I can see. 150+ Million American's theists do the same thing. So that makes it common place, not weird. It may be intellectually dishonest but not weird and only if one is using their intellect. Which raises the question is intellect required to be intellectually dishonest? I digress. It's not like they're all being a liars now. He's just playing the semantics game, pretending to or acting like he doesn't know the meaning of "child". It's what he does, it's what all Christians do. It's being like Jesus and what could possibly be wrong with emulating Jesus?
You know? When Jesus clearly stated in Matthew 24-34 (NKJV), "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." Jesus was just playing the semantics game, pretending to not know or was acting like he didn't know the meaning of all these words or word groups he spoke. The words like, "assuredly", "this generation", "will by no means", "pass away", "all", "take place". I was talking to some Jehovah Witnesses last month and they told me what my problem is with understanding all this stuff. (I)We Atheists, we're to stupid and hate God so much we can't possibly understand it. We're blinded by hate and ignorance, our confusion is unavoidable. Not being in the know, we misinterpret Matthew 24-34 to mean this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. That's where we get it wrong, it doesn't mean that at all. Jesus was using semantics just like his emulators today. What he said wasn't what he said to mean. See?
They (JW's) explained the people living back then who heard Jesus, thought it meant what atheist today thinks it means but they were as wrong as atheists are today. When that last one died waiting for Jesus, then it became clear to all those still alive it didn't mean that. Then again, when all those alive, who weren't alive to hear Jesus all died, what it meant became clear to those still alive then and so on and so on for about 2013 years. Until today about 30 some odd generations later where it now means not all of us will die before, at least one of us, will see Jesus' return. How cool is that? To be alive these last days and seeing Jesus return!!! Hallelujah to the lucky one's!!!
Is it all clear now Dr. Mabuse? He's coming real soon, Jesus said so himself and if you can't believe Jesus than who can you believe? If you can't take as Gospel as "The Gospel" we might as well all go out and start robbing banks, robbing stores, Killing babies and children, go off raping and killing whoever we want. It all make sense and is perfectly logical, if you have your eyes and heart open to the truth and reality Holy Spirit. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2013 : 06:51:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
If you know when it is not a child then when is it a child?
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When it stopped being a toddler?
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What?
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Pretty simple here.
When a child stops being a toddler, it becomes an adolecent. After that, an adult.
At each stage, the being in question gains more rights and responsibilities. A child has few rights. An adolecent has more and finally an adult has all the rights and responsibilities that you or I have.
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So how does the amount of responsibilities a person has fit into abortion? Are you saying one becomes a person when they gain a certain amount of responsibility? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Hypothetical Question
