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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 03/14/2014 : 13:02:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Of course in your backwards bizzaro world it is OK to ID somebody for a pack of smokes but not to vote and that is the result of you being from a different planet. |
No, it's the result of me reading the Constitution. If you are a non-felon citizen, you are entitled to one vote, period. The Constitution does not entitle one to smoke.
Why do you want to strip people of their Constitutional rights, Bill?| You have never proven that it disenfranchise 1000's of voters. |
If we run with your 0.0001% figure, that'd be 234, so your guess was in the ballpark.| Why can't get these 1000's of people get a valid ID to vote when they have no problem getting one to buy smokes or booze? |
Do you really think that people who don't have a photo ID to vote somehow magically have one when buying smokes? Or are you just assuming that the people you see using ID to buy smokes also claim to not be able to vote?
| And don't try to bring up up your phony story about 1000's of poor and brown people being born 90 years ago in places where birth certificates were not accessible, that just makes you look even sillier than you already do. |
No, Bill, that was just one example of why it might be difficult for someone to obtain a photo ID even if the state is covering the cost. There are plenty of other reasons why someone might have trouble getting together the documentation they need in order to get a valid photo ID. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2014 : 16:43:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| The web page you pointed to does not support your assertions. |
Oh but it does. |
Where?| It's the most popular cable tv news. When compared to the combined left leaning CBS, ABC, NBC, MSNBC and CNN's who are all in the tank for Obama it pales in comparison. |
Since when are MSNBC and CNN not cable news? Besides, even though half as many people watch cable news as broadcast news (of which FOX has a not-insubstantial slice), cable news gets watched twice as long as broadcast news.
FOX on cable raked in more viewers in 2013 than CNN, MSNBC and HLN combined.
And I just remembered: FOX doesn't even have broadcast news programs. Except for prime-time, they just have tons of local programming. Derp.| No because the stores will not sell it to them without a valid ID, which anybody can get if they are entitled to one. Funny how that works. |
Funny how it doesn't work for everyone. Here are some numbers.| People who are not supposed to be buying the product can't. |
Voting is not a product.| So for that reason alone it's now OK for the mean pubs to declare war on poor and brown people by disenfranchising them from their beer and cigs?!?!?! |
I guess you don't know what "disenfranchising" means.| But why not just go by the honer system like we do when it comes to voting? Why single out the poor and brown people from getting beer and smokes by making it a law they have valid ID to buy it? |
The laws requiring ID for booze and smokes weren't intended to single out the poor and brown. Voter ID laws are intended to disenfranchise eligible voters, because the Republicans know that the poor and non-white are more likely to vote Democrat, and the Republicans also know that low voter turn-out is bad for Democrats.| I am sure there would be no trouble at all just asking people to be honest about being of age rather than this whole having to have a valid ID nonsense. |
I guess you have never known any teenagers.| If we can use the honor system to let people exercise their constitutional right to vote it should be a no-brainier to use it for beer and smoke purchases. |
Sure. Just enact a system whereby people have to get a registration card to be able to buy alcohol and tobacco, alleging that they are old enough (and otherwise legally able) to do so under penalty of perjury, and if they cannot produce their registration card when trying to make a purchase, the product will be held for them until the store owner can prove they are, indeed, eligible to buy. That would be a good system analogous to voting.| No. I see no reason at all a person should not provide valid ID before voting. |
Why should they have to? We don't tend to enact laws in this country just because there's no reason not to enact a law.| ...therefore nobody ever should need to have a valid ID to vote ever... |
No:
1) Nobody should ever have to present a valid ID to vote, ever.
2) People who have no other reason to have an ID shouldn't be forced to get one just to vote.| Which makes requiring a valid ID to vote all the more important. Anything less belittles that constitutional right and belittles those who vote legal. |
Rights don't have feelings. They cannot be "belittled." Perhaps you meant "trivialized," in which case you should be arguing against allowing anyone to disenfranchise anyone for any reason. Preventing people from exercising their Constitutional rights is what trivializes the Constitution.| The funny thing is that Obama is a conservative. |
Sure he is. |
You have obviously confused "Democrat" for "liberal." The current crop of Democratic congresspeople are pro-big business, soft on healthcare, soft on education, and soft on equality. They are not liberals. Really, which part(s) of their National Platform scream "liberal!" to you?
And the Obama administration has kept and defended the worst of the Bush-era human- and civil-rights abuses. The primary differences between the Republicans and the Democrats are whether gay sex is intolerable, whether contraception prevents abortion, and who is going to pay (literally and figuratively) to reduce the deficit.| There is no viable center or left party in the US. |
I never said there was |
Then why do you seem to think that Obama is not a conservative?| ...nor should we trust any Tom Dick or Harry who just walks in off the street to vote and says "trust me". |
Why not? What's the harm?| Why are not the poor and brown outraged that they have to produce a valid ID to fly in a plane? |
The poor fly in planes? I think ticket prices tend to prevent that. And I am outraged that I have to produce ID to fly, because it's pointless security theater that's done nothing to make our skies safer.| I know I know your rambling nonsense about that not being a constitutional right. You are so full of crap I bet your eyes are brown. |
Hey, you keep trying to trivialize the Constitution by equating it with all sorts of other stuff. It's not me here who's full of it.| Again, buying booze isn't a constitutionaly protected right. |
And yet they still feel it is important enough to ask for ID... |
Because underage drinking causes serious and demonstrable problems for both the kids' health and public safety, whereas in-person voter fraud is negligible.| ...which belittles our rights to vote when any Tom Dick and Harry can walk in off the street and enter a ballet box with no questions asked. You live in the backwards bizzaro world my fine feathered friend. |
It's your bizarro world where nobody needs to register to vote, ever.| Naturally. Anything that makes sense to rational civilized people, here and abroad, is nixed in your backwards bizzaro world. |
How does it make sense to pass laws against vote fraud which do not protect against vote fraud?!| Millions of men have fought and died for our constitutional right to vote, which allowing any Tom Dick and Harry to vote with no ID verification at all just belittles that right and the men who died for us to have that right. |
No, preventing someone from exercising their Constitutional right to vote only because they can't present a state-issued photo ID is what trivializes the sacrifice of millions of soldiers. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2014 : 02:45:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
OK here we go again with the republicans war on everybody scare tactics. You guys are consistent I'll give you that. Funny, none of the poor or brown people I have seen at the gas station buying cigs or at the alcohol store getting beer have ever had any trouble pulling out a photo ID to get their products.
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That's probably because those who hasn't got photo ID wouldn't bother to go there since they know they wouldn't be served without it. Duh!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2014 : 07:31:38 [Permalink]
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Actually, unless a store has recently been busted for selling booze or smokes to underage kids, they generally don't ask for ID for anyone who looks obviously over 21. Gray hair and wrinkles tend to be enough proof of age for lots of places. And people over 65 are more likely to not have photo ID anyway (if you're not physically able to drive safely, why have a license?). And regardless your age, if you're a regular customer at a store with low staff turn-over, you're going to be asked for ID only until the sales clerks recognize you.
So either Bill is going to places where the proprietors are paranoid that the Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control or the Department of Health might send undercover buyers to ensure that everyone is getting carded, or the customers he's seeing presenting IDs are either in their twenties or are baby-faced older folks. Or, Bill is taking his sample data from the inside of ABC stores, where the clerks are state employees who card everyone, and the customer base skews towards middle class.
Last time I got carded was about ten years ago, and the clerk at the supermarket actually apologized to me, saying that she'd get in trouble if she didn't ask for ID from everyone buying beer, because she was new and under close, probationary supervision. I haven't been carded for cigarettes since I was 24 or so. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2014 : 14:05:09 [Permalink]
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Hey, Bill, check out this article about Republicans admitting that their vote-limiting measures are all about disenfranchising Democrats.
It seems that in Mississippi, to get your free photo ID for voting, you need your birth certificate. And to get your birth certificate, you need $15 and a photo ID. Brilliant.
(Thanks, chatters.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2014 : 12:06:46 [Permalink]
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Hey Bill: here's a new article reporting on large-scale voter fraud in Texas.
..."Large-scale" meaning two cases that might have been stopped by voter-ID laws in the past thirteen years.
But the state's own data says (PDF):48. In January 2012, Texas submitted a second dataset purporting to show that 6.2% of all Texas registered voters—795,955 persons—lacked a DPS-issued driver’s license or personal ID. This figure was again based on a comparison of the State’s voter registration and DPS databases. These data stated that 10.8% of Hispanic registered voters (as estimated by Spanish surname analysis) did not have a DPS-issued ID, as compared to only 4.9% of non-Hispanic voters... So, a law that might prevent one fraudulent vote every 6.5 years could disenfranchise nearly 800,000 every election. And why don't they just go get ID? Because the DPS isn't open on the weekends, the Texas citizens impacted tend to be poor, and Texas is a big place:16. SB 14 requires nearly all in-person voters in Texas to present one of the following forms of government-issued photo identification in order to vote: (1) a driver’s license, personal ID card, or election identification certificate (EIC), all of which are issued by DPS; (2) a license to carry a concealed handgun, which is also issued by DPS; (3) a U.S. military ID card; (4) a U.S. citizenship certificate with photograph; or (5) a U.S. passport. [Citations removed]
17. SB 14 prohibits the use of photo IDs for election identification purposes that have expired more than “60 days before the date of presentation” at the polls.
18. Voters who currently have none of the other forms of photo ID specified in SB 14 may apply for an EIC for use as identification at the polls.
19. SB 14 requires voters to travel to a DPS driver license office to obtain an EIC.
20. There is no driver license office in scores of Texas counties, and driver license offices in dozens of additional counties are open only one or two days a week.
21. SB 14 requires some voters to travel approximately 200 miles roundtrip in order to obtain an EIC.
22. Because Texas driver license offices do not conduct business during the weekend or after 6 p.m., some voters are required to take hours of time out of a workday to obtain an EIC.
23. Once at a Texas driver license office, a voter must present one or more of the following documents to obtain an EIC: (1) an expired Texas driver’s license or personal ID card; (2) an original or certified copy of a birth certificate; (3) U.S. citizenship or naturalization papers; or (4) a court order indicating a change of name or gender.
24. Each of the documents needed to procure an EIC costs money to obtain. A copy of a certified birth certificate from the Texas Bureau of Vital Statistics—the least expensive option for those born in Texas—is $22. It costs $345 to obtain a copy of U.S. citizenship or naturalization papers. Oh, and this:57. ...Texas legislature... rejected or tabled potentially ameliorative amendments that would have:- waived all fees for indigent persons who needed the underlying documents to obtain an EIC,
- reimbursed impoverished Texans for EIC-related travel costs,
- expanded the range of identifications acceptable under SB 14 by allowing voters to present student or Medicare ID cards at the polls,
- required DPS offices to remain open in the evening and on weekends, and
- allowed indigent persons to cast provisional ballots without photo ID.
The legislators said it loud and clear: fuck the poor. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2014 : 03:57:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
It's the most popular cable tv news. When compared to the combined left leaning CBS, ABC, NBC, MSNBC and CNN's who are all in the tank for Obama it pales in comparison.
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I'd hardly consider CNN left leaning, they seem to be to the right of centre. The only one I would consider left leaning would be _maybe_ Rachel Maddow Show. But more importantly, MSNBC and Maddow stands firmly on reporting truthfully (and investigating thoroughly), as a great contrast to the lying morons at the conservative propaganda machine that is FOX News.
Just look at the investigation they made on Christies shut-down of the bridge. Maddow could show the time-line step by step leading up to the shut-down. Have any other NEWS-channel even come close to investigating possible motives?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 04/02/2014 04:57:05 |
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Religious privilege, legislated
