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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
 Posted - 07/24/2014 : 09:54:01
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*Disclaimer*
I am not now, nor have I ever been an expert on International Relations, World Politics or History. In fact, when the topic turns to World Politics or World History (excluding portions of Southeast Asia), I usually hide in a corner so as not to embarrass myself. I have opinions on this subject based on limited information and I am truly seeking information here.
Why do we give Israel 3.5 billion dollars per year to apparently expand its territory?
What do we as a nation receive in return?
By giving this support, don't we share the blame for Israel's portion of the disregard for civilian casualties inherent in this conflict?
I am not attempting to be inflammatory here. I am trying to wrap my mind around this and now that I have started reading up on the subject, I am more confused than when I started.
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You learn something new every g****mn day! |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2014 : 05:39:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by LizW
*Disclaimer*
I am not now, nor have I ever been an expert on International Relations, World Politics or History. In fact, when the topic turns to World Politics or World History (excluding portions of Southeast Asia), I usually hide in a corner so as not to embarrass myself. I have opinions on this subject based on limited information and I am truly seeking information here.
Why do we give Israel 3.5 billion dollars per year to apparently expand its territory? |
About half of it is military aid. That aid must then be used to purchase US made weapons and weapon systems. (Patriot missile batteries, F-14 fighters, modified versions of the M1A1 Abrams main battle tank, heavily modified versions of the Bradley armored personell carrier, etc). In effect generating sales to major defense contractors (who build the items here).
And Israel only has expanded territory in response to being attacked. The west bank was taken from Jordan during an attempted invasion.
What do we as a nation receive in return? |
A bit of stability to the region and at least advance warning of plots in the immediate neighborhood.
At the end of WWII, we didn't have to take in the literally millions of Jewish refugees (which was important back then) and the Soviets didn't have to go through the bother of imprisoning them and killing them. Instead, they were given their own homeland. This act pissed off the people who were on it in the first place.
By giving this support, don't we share the blame for Israel's portion of the disregard for civilian casualties inherent in this conflict? |
No. Israel has been holding itself back for years. Gaza has been a near constant source of attacks on the Jewish homelands. And, at our request, they have not retaliated in a way that would end them. The terrorists attacking Israel have been storing weapons and headquartering in the middle of densely populated areas (to insure that any retaliation would heavily increase civilian casualties).
We have also sold Palestinians weapons as well. And we give them plenty of cash, too.
To be fair, we share in only the blame of selling the weapons to both sides. What those sides did with them subsequently is immaterial. It is the tactics inherently being used by both sides (which we did not help them develop nor deploy) which is causing the increased civilian casualties.
I am not attempting to be inflammatory here. I am trying to wrap my mind around this and now that I have started reading up on the subject, I am more confused than when I started.
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Not surprising. The subject goes back to the formation of Israel in the late 40's. It's been a constant battle zone ever since. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2014 : 08:08:12 [Permalink]
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Thank you Dancer.
I have been reading various articles on the subject but the only informative ones are vary narrow in scope, dealing with specific details, not an overview. So I am picking up bits and pieces of what has happened in the past but it is all disjointed. I have read one "sort of" overview article but it was about pro-Israel lobbying in the US and while some of the information was useful, the rest was a lot of unsupported information that was no help.
About half of it is military aid. That aid must then be used to purchase US made weapons and weapon systems. (Patriot missile batteries, F-14 fighters, modified versions of the M1A1 Abrams main battle tank, heavily modified versions of the Bradley armored personell carrier, etc). In effect generating sales to major defense contractors (who build the items here).
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I hate to say it but this make sense.
And Israel only has expanded territory in response to being attacked. The west bank was taken from Jordan during an attempted invasion.
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If you can, would you explain the chain of ownership (or attempted ownership) to me. I know I have this part all wrong. The initial parcel of land was taken by Britain? and at the time belonged to who? Egypt? Syria? Lebanon? Some of each? Was Palestine originally part of Jordan? Was the Population supposed to be absorbed by Israel or pushed into Jordan?
| A bit of stability to the region and at least advance warning of plots in the immediate neighborhood. |
Isn't a lot of this neighborhood specifically pissed off at us because of our support of Israel?
No. Israel has been holding itself back for years. Gaza has been a near constant source of attacks on the Jewish homelands. And, at our request, they have not retaliated in a way that would end them. The terrorists attacking Israel have been storing weapons and headquartering in the middle of densely populated areas (to insure that any retaliation would heavily increase civilian casualties).
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Is Hamas acting like the IRA did in Ireland? Responding in part to mistreatment by a conquering force with a militant arm and a political arm based on religious differences as well as wanting the force out of the territory? What accommodations did Israel make for the Palestinian population initially? Was Hamas a result of Israels treatment of the Palestinians or strictly religious idealists? Did they have any option besides working within populated areas? It looks like all of that area is densely populated.
| We have also sold Palestinians weapons as well. And we give them plenty of cash, too. |
If both sides are dependent on our support, why can't we impel them to come to a working agreement or just cut both sides loose. We are obviously not helping the situation.
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You learn something new every g****mn day! |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2014 : 06:47:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by LizW
Thank you Dancer.
I have been reading various articles on the subject but the only informative ones are vary narrow in scope, dealing with specific details, not an overview. So I am picking up bits and pieces of what has happened in the past but it is all disjointed. I have read one "sort of" overview article but it was about pro-Israel lobbying in the US and while some of the information was useful, the rest was a lot of unsupported information that was no help.
About half of it is military aid. That aid must then be used to purchase US made weapons and weapon systems. (Patriot missile batteries, F-14 fighters, modified versions of the M1A1 Abrams main battle tank, heavily modified versions of the Bradley armored personell carrier, etc). In effect generating sales to major defense contractors (who build the items here).
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I hate to say it but this make sense.
And Israel only has expanded territory in response to being attacked. The west bank was taken from Jordan during an attempted invasion.
|
If you can, would you explain the chain of ownership (or attempted ownership) to me. I know I have this part all wrong. The initial parcel of land was taken by Britain? and at the time belonged to who? Egypt? Syria? Lebanon? Some of each? Was Palestine originally part of Jordan? Was the Population supposed to be absorbed by Israel or pushed into Jordan? |
Britian had a colony in Palestine for quite a while. It was carved out of the Ottoman Empire. It was not originally part of Jordan (as that kingdom arose after the formation of Palestine and the collapse of the Ottoman empire.). However, Jordan attacked Israel without provocation (Primarily because the territory included Jerusalem and is a holy city to three major religions.) Israel defended itself from Jordan and had pushed into territory controlled by Jordan so that it would have a far more defensable border. It expected to absorb the conquered lands into itself.
| A bit of stability to the region and at least advance warning of plots in the immediate neighborhood. |
Isn't a lot of this neighborhood specifically pissed off at us because of our support of Israel? |
The neighborhood has been pissed at us specifically because of the various and sundry invasions of their lands over centuries that we quaintly call "The Crusades". Taking Jerusalem from the Palestinians and giving it to the Jews was just the latests act. The superpowers didn't care about the smaller and weaker countries in the middle east and didn't want the Jewish refugees.
No. Israel has been holding itself back for years. Gaza has been a near constant source of attacks on the Jewish homelands. And, at our request, they have not retaliated in a way that would end them. The terrorists attacking Israel have been storing weapons and headquartering in the middle of densely populated areas (to insure that any retaliation would heavily increase civilian casualties).
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Is Hamas acting like the IRA did in Ireland? Responding in part to mistreatment by a conquering force with a militant arm and a political arm based on religious differences as well as wanting the force out of the territory? What accommodations did Israel make for the Palestinian population initially? Was Hamas a result of Israels treatment of the Palestinians or strictly religious idealists? Did they have any option besides working within populated areas? It looks like all of that area is densely populated. |
Hamas was a combination of both factors. They have sections of land to operate in that are not so populated and have industrial areas to headquarter in. They choose not to.
| We have also sold Palestinians weapons as well. And we give them plenty of cash, too. |
If both sides are dependent on our support, why can't we impel them to come to a working agreement or just cut both sides loose. We are obviously not helping the situation.
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If we cut them loose, look for mushroom clouds over major population centers when Isreal gets attacked again. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2014 : 09:30:48 [Permalink]
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Val:
However, Jordan attacked Israel without provocation (Primarily because the territory included Jerusalem and is a holy city to three major religions.) |
It should be pointed out that during the 67 war, Israel pleaded with Jordan to remain neutral. Jordan was in control of east Jerusalem. Because Jordan attacked Israel, they lost east Jerusalem. It was then that Israel placed all of Jerusalem, and not just the western part under Israeli law. Until then, Jerusalem was a divided city. Residents of east Jerusalem were offered permanent resident status and and an option for applying for Israeli citizenship.
They also left the temple mount under the jurisdiction of islamic law but took control of the western wall, The holiest site in all of judaism. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Why Are We Paying Israel to be Bullies?
