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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2016 :  21:30:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I spoke too soon. But the biggest objection I'm seeing (probably because I don't do twitter because I'd rather not be angry all the time) is that some people agree with Dawkins, that the NECSS should have contacted him before they posted. Basically, what Dawkins said.

On the upside, there seems to be more people who are done with Dawkins. As Kitty Mervine said about Dawkins and the video, "He's supposed to have CLASS? That was IT. Period."

And this from Ashley Crow:

"If you like Richard Dawkins, unfriend me now. If you use this space to defend him, I will unfriend you and delete your comment. This is your only warning."

Jeff Wagg:

"Dawkins was just disinvited from NECSS. I approve."

Sharon Hill regarding Dawkins in Jeff's thread:

"I am disgusted. So totally disgusted."

And so on...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2016 :  18:57:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

I spoke too soon. But the biggest objection I'm seeing (probably because I don't do twitter because I'd rather not be angry all the time) is that some people agree with Dawkins, that the NECSS should have contacted him before they posted. Basically, what Dawkins said.
Which is that nonsense I was talking about. It happens time and time again, and it's just another symptom of the problem.

Effectively, "I can say whatever I want publicly without your prior approval, but if you want criticize me for it, you should do so privately first, and if you don't, you're the bad person (nevermind whatever horrible thing I said in the first place)."

Shermer did it to Ophelia Benson. If I remember correctly, DJ Grothe did it to Carrie Poppy. And now Dawkins has done it to NECSS.

And it's a common-enough trope of the privileged that I know there are more examples out there that I just can't remember right now.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2016 :  13:54:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
NECSS and Richard Dawkins by Steve Novella

The Northeast Conference on Science and Skepticism (NECSS) will hold its 8th conference this year in New York from May 12-15. While we are expecting a great conference this year, the opening of registration has been marked by a bit of controversy. Last week we announced that Richard Dawkins would be a featured speaker at the conference. However on Wednesday we withdrew our invitation to Professor Dawkins.

This was a difficult and complex decision that requires further explanation, in the name of transparency and open discussion. I don’t expect to resolve any controversies here, just to explain our thought process and answer some of the questions and speculations that have been circulating.

NECSS is run by the New York City Skeptics and the New England Skeptical Society, both non-profit organizations. NECSS has its own executive committee, consisting of members of both organizations. There has been much speculation about who is making the decisions for NECSS – it is this committee. I will just say that there were a range of opinions on this matter within the committee, and we came to the best decisions we could, given that range of opinions. When I refer to “we” in this article, I am not speaking for every individual on the committee, just the majority result.


Read on.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2016 :  19:29:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
PZ Myers thinks that both Dawkins and Novella miss the point:
Yes, let us all be rational together. Let us all have a polite discussion about the appropriateness of recognizing the right of women to be angry about a few millennia of second-citizen status. Isn’t this a dreadfully divisive distraction that might interfere with our promotion of science literacy? Shouldn’t we consider anti-feminists as a reasonable part of our eminently reasonable movement?

While I appreciate what Novella is saying, and I think he says it well, I think it also fails to forcefully acknowledge that the atheist/skeptic movements must fully recognize the equality of all men and women, and the reality of the systematic oppression of men and women, or it fails to live up to those rational, reasonable, critical-thinking ideals we supposedly have.

This is not a topic for debate. It’s time to stop pretending that it is.

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Dave W.
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USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2016 :  19:38:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And one of the commenters on Novella's piece actually said "Je suis Dawkins"?! For fuck's sake, people! Dawkins is alive and well and hasn't had a hair on his body touched by NECSS. Comparing his "plight" to the barbarous murders of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists and staffers is appalling, at best.

Criticism of Dawkins is not similar in any way to militant Islamic terrorism.

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Dave W.
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26022 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2016 :  20:33:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A brilliant skeptic. Replying to "I would have thought most feminists were against the persecution of women in the Islamic world," Dawkins Tweeted:
I would have thought so too. So where are they? Why don't they raise their voices like Maryam Namazie & Sarah Haider?
So the lesson is clear: if Dawkins hasn't seen something, it simply doesn't exist. It's not like Google can help anyone find things they might be interested in. I read feminists writing about the persecution of women in the Islamic world every single day. They're not difficult to find. They're not hiding. They're raising their voices quite well.

Creationists of the world rejoice! If a popular communicator of science is a good example to follow, then please continue asking "if we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" It's a perfectly reasoned and rational addition to the discussion of evolution.

Fuck, this man now makes me ill.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2016 :  21:58:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Helping to divide us, 140 characters at a time:
...I also do wish Dawkins would recognize his special place within our community and the power that position holds. I told him that when we had the conversation that led to the joint statement in July 2014. He definitely does recognize his special place for some purposes, i.e. when it’s pleasant for him, but he seems not to when it comes to recognizing the harm he does to the random people he targets. He’s doing it now, today – he’s still producing hateful tweets about the woman in the video, still insisting that she deserves all the mockery possible. His special place right now seems to be Bully in Chief.

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Dave W.
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USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2016 :  18:05:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dawkins is The Most Prominent Member of GamerGate.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2016 :  18:51:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dawkins has now taken to retweeting obvious, outrageous lies. He's getting more and more like the creationists every day.

And because of that, he won't take Ophelia Benson's advice:
You know what I wish? I wish Dawkins would just change direction. I wish he would buckle down and find out who all those progressive feminist universalist Muslim and ex-Muslim women are and promote them. That’s what. I wish he would stop using his massive Twitter voice to attack and bully individual women he takes a dislike to, and individual Muslim schoolboys he takes a dislike to, and instead use it to tell his million fans about people he likes. Stop the bashing, and start promoting instead.

He could do that. It wouldn’t hurt him. It would be fun, and he could feel he was accomplishing something. He would be accomplishing something. He’d be putting his fame to good use.

What’s he accomplishing now? What good does he do by trashing feminism and promoting other people who trash feminism? How does that help anything? In fact how is he not just wasting valuable time and resources that he could be devoting to promoting the very people he claims to be such an ardent ally of? I feel like writing a new Dear Muslima addressed to him. Millions of girls taken out of school to be married to men older than their fathers, and here’s Dawkins busy retweeting MRAs all day instead of doing anything to help those girls.

I’m serious. He could be helping, and he’s not. Why not?
Just like creationists won't (and can't) find solid evidence for their positions and instead publish reams and reams of anti-evolution nonsense, Dawkins' entire schtick now is simply anti-feminist, anti-social justice crappola.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2016 :  19:30:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just posted this at Ophelia's blog:
Richard Dawkins is to feminism as Kent Hovind is to evolutionary biology.

Dawkins’ “where are the feminists” tweet from the other day is Hovind’s “where are the transitional fossils?”

Dawkins’ retweet of the video last week is Hovind’s “science is a fundamentalist religion.”

Dawkins’ support for CHS is Hovind’s support for any non-evolutionary biologist who disputes evolution.

And I’d bet a dollar that he promotes Maryam’s anti-Islamicness, and not her feminism, much like Hovind will quote actual evolutionary biologists if they happen to say something Hovind thinks supports his creationism (Ken Miller, perhaps).

This is why Dawkins won’t promote the good stuff: like Hovind, he doesn’t have any. Hovind can only bash evolution because he doesn’t understand it, refuses to learn and can’t promote an evidence-based alternative (because there is none), and Dawkins can only bash feminism because he doesn’t understand it, refuses to learn and can’t promote an evidence-based alternative.

Dawkins knows the creationist tactics well enough from fighting against them. Now, he’s putting them to use.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2016 :  20:00:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To add to the analogy, Dawkins tweeted:
Oh please, I'm passionately in favour of feminists. Just not those who care about shirts while ignoring Islamic misogyny.
And Kent Hovind is passionately in favor of scientists, just not those who disagree with six-day creationism.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2016 :  20:25:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
PZ Myers:
...I won’t be attending the Reason Rally. Any movement with that man as its figurehead does not represent me.
The Reason Rally proclaims:
...our dream of a future where people are free to express rational and reasonable views without the fear of reprisal, retaliation, or retribution!
Again, the inclusion of Dawkins as a featured speaker promotes his ideas as "rational and reasonable views" when they're anything but that with regards to feminism in particular and social justice in general.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2016 :  20:42:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It just keeps getting worse. Dawkins favorably compared the "satire" in the "feminists and Islamists share an ideology" video to the satire of Tom Lehrer, Tim Minchin and Monty freakin' Python.

And then anteprepro points out:
Guess what Dawkins retweeted?
If @RichardDawkins was a real feminist he wouldn’t waste time on FGM & child brides, he’d tackle real issues like butts in video games.
So he retweeted himself a Gamergator Dear Muslima. We are fast approaching Peak Dawkins.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2016 :  22:08:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote

H/T: falcom.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2016 :  23:07:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.


H/T: falcom.
Bingo!

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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