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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 01/09/2017 : 11:47:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
Originally posted by Dave W.
No, we just need to convince a huge majority of Americans that they don't and shouldn't need free access to guns. |
Then you could repeal the 2nd amendment?
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That may not be necessary if you choose another interpretation of the wording of the amendment. Perhaps starting with putting the text in its proper historical context.
But what do I know? The constitution is not mine, I never memorized it because I live in another country.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2017 : 11:59:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
I mainly opposed the ACA because of the cost and mandatory participation.
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The same goes for the military, or any other governmental function.
Why should Dave or Kil have to pay for a defence budget larger than the next ten greatest countries in the world together, especially since they might think its size is unnecessary. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2017 : 12:16:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
I have heard the argument that requiring a simple license to vote is too burdensome for someone to exercise their right. How is this different for a gun? Or do you approve of ID's for voting. Do you think some of these laws could become too burdensome for some to exercise their right to own a gun?
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ID for voting is the law in the land I live in. On the other hand, basically everyone has one. And our literacy is as close to 100% as you get in the world.
We consider a 75% voter turn-out so low as to be a failure of democracy.
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Sounds good. I would not consider that a failure of democracy below 75%. In a free society you should have the right not to vote. Some people did not vote for either candidate because they strongly objected to both. Failure of democracy would be dead people voting, people voting more than once, illegals voting, etc. Not enough here to affect the election but all of those did happen.
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Not voting is to stand off the side-line of the community. If you don't bother or don't care enough, then screw you. However, if you do haul your ass to the voting booth and vote Blank... That is something I actually do respect. Then you've shown that none of the candidates are worth considering.
Everyone who declined to vote has forfeited the right to bitch about the government.
It's my firm belief that it's everyone's moral responsibility to choose the best possible government to secure the future for mankind. And with Trump as president, USA have failed so miserably... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend
99 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2017 : 14:32:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
I mainly opposed the ACA because of the cost and mandatory participation.
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The same goes for the military, or any other governmental function.
Why should Dave or Kil have to pay for a defence budget larger than the next ten greatest countries in the world together, especially since they might think its size is unnecessary.
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But you don't pay taxes just because you exist. You have to have health insurance just because you exist.
They added an amendment to make sure that income taxes are constitutional. I don't think income taxes are moral or constitutional without the 16th amendment. I think a sales or transaction tax may be better. |
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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend
99 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2017 : 14:36:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
I mainly opposed the ACA because of the cost and mandatory participation.
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The same goes for the military, or any other governmental function.
Why should Dave or Kil have to pay for a defence budget larger than the next ten greatest countries in the world together, especially since they might think its size is unnecessary.
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The cost for military or other governmental functions can be changed by lawmakers during the budget process. The fact that I have to have health insurance cannot unless they change the law. Which we will see how hard it will be. |
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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend
99 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2017 : 14:40:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Not voting is to stand off the side-line of the community. If you don't bother or don't care enough, then screw you. However, if you do haul your ass to the voting booth and vote Blank... That is something I actually do respect. Then you've shown that none of the candidates are worth considering. |
This is what I did. I voted for local offices and not the presidential office.
| Everyone who declined to vote has forfeited the right to bitch about the government. |
Where is this written?
It's my firm belief that it's everyone's moral responsibility to choose the best possible government to secure the future for mankind. And with Trump as president, USA have failed so miserably...
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Ok, but others may not believe that. I am on your side. I think everyone should vote. I believe criminals in jail should have the right to vote. But it is their right not to vote and that should be protected as well. We can try to convince them to vote. |
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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend
99 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2017 : 15:43:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Do you oppose taxation, too? |
Sort of. I don’t oppose taxes just how they are collected. I think income taxes are immoral and unconstitutional before they ratified the 16th amendment. I am for a sales tax or transaction tax of some sort.
| Could we have done so, with the Congress we had? |
What, 100% democrat controlled? Sure they could have but that is not what they wanted to do.
| Mostly because state governors refusing the Medicaid expansion to bridge the gap between the old Medicaid limit and the lowest income covered by the ACA. The silliest part of that refusal is that it represented free money to the states. A state governor who worries about the Federal deficit is abdicating his role. |
Not really. They federal funding decreases over time putting more of the burden on the states. Some have projected these cost to be too much over time.
| Probably because you would get no subsidies. Besides, the ACA wasn't designed for people who get insurance through their employers. |
What if I lose my job?
| Employers negotiate a group rate for insurance. Were we to ban all group insurance rates, every individual would need to negotiate rates on their own, a massively inefficient system. One that would require the dissolution of Medicare, too. I'm sure the AARP and other private groups would love having their negotiated rates thrown away, too. |
Why does company boundaries have to exist? Why would it be different for a group of individuals coming together to forming a health group?
| Have your premiums been cut by at least $2500? |
No. Should they have been? |
The president kept saying they would.
| Germany provides universal healthcare for an 8% income tax, and that includes all sorts of nifty stuff like home nurse visits for expectant mothers, for example. |
Sounds good.
| I don't want it perfect because a perfect ACA bill would still require me to purchase health insurance or suffer the penalty of a large and powerful government. |
Kinda like paying taxes. Or getting a license to drive on public roads? |
No. I don’t have to pay a license fee just because I exist.
| Surely this is what the writers of the constitution were thinking. |
No, there was no single thought that all of the founders agreed upon. |
Maybe but I doubt any had the idea for the government to be so powerful as to dictate its citizens to buy a product/service.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2017 : 21:12:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
I am for a sales tax or transaction tax of some sort. |
Again: flat taxes turn into regressive taxes really easily. Sales taxes already are. A poor person who spends $10 a day to just to live spends perhaps 50 cents of that in sales taxes (say). But rich people put money into savings and investments which aren't taxed, or are taxed at a much lower rate, so they wind up spending less on sales taxes as a percentage of income than poor people. Every flat tax is like that.
| Could we have done so, with the Congress we had? |
What, 100% democrat controlled? Sure they could have but that is not what they wanted to do. |
No, they couldn't have. Many Democrats would have voted against a bill which nationalized health care, because many of them are corporate protectionists and/or under sway of the lobbyists. The reason we didn't get single-payer eight years ago is that there weren't enough Democratic votes to pass it.
| Not really. They federal funding decreases over time putting more of the burden on the states. Some have projected these cost to be too much over time. |
The funding decreases only to 90% in 2020, and it's 90% thereafter. Those who have projected the costs to be more than zero dollars in real economic terms have done the calculations wrong, but I don't give most of the hold-outs that much credit. Too many issues have been decided not upon principled economic platforms, but because it was Obama.
| Probably because you would get no subsidies. Besides, the ACA wasn't designed for people who get insurance through their employers. |
What if I lose my job? |
If your income drops significantly, you'd get subsidies. There are plenty of success stories to go with the horror stories. Someone out there has insurance like mine for a buck a month. I wish I could pay so little.
| Why does company boundaries have to exist? Why would it be different for a group of individuals coming together to forming a health group? |
Some do already (like the aforementioned AARP). What you're proposing, though, is that people should have to find or found such a group to get decent insurance rates. Nobody has to buy insurance through their employer. It's an offered benefit, like vacation pay (you don't have to take vacation, either).
I've got a coworker who doesn't take our company's insurance because his wife's employer's insurance is better.
| Have your premiums been cut by at least $2500? |
No. Should they have been? |
The president kept saying they would. |
I had to go look it up, because I blew that off as campaign rhetoric eight years ago. Obama pretty much quit saying anything like it after 2011.
In another post, you wrote:| The cost for military or other governmental functions can be changed by lawmakers during the budget process. The fact that I have to have health insurance cannot unless they change the law. |
The budget is implemented through a series of laws that appropriate the money. Changing the budget is changing a law - Congress and the President all need to agree to the change to get it passed (to put it simply).
No different, really, from changing the ACA's mandate.
Hey, wait a minute: you are mandated to buy (say) 1/27,000,000th of Texas' death penalty cases. You're mandated to buy 1/320,000,000th of each stealth bomber. The way you get around these mandates is the same way you can get out of buying insurance: become so poor that you no longer need to pay. The government will give you free health care.
After all, nobody is forcing you to cash your paycheck. Nobody is forcing you to even go to work.
| No. I don’t have to pay a license fee just because I exist. |
Good point. But you do have other responsibilities to the larger community just because you exist within it. The ACA's mandate is merely fiscal.
| Maybe but I doubt any had the idea for the government to be so powerful as to dictate its citizens to buy a product/service. |
Hey, back then, a disturbingly large percentage of the population would get returned to their "owners" by the powerful government if they ran away. Don't ever be surprised by some of the monstrous ideas our founders had, or what monstrous things they completely failed to predict.
Good grief, a standing professional army with millions of soldiers was utterly unthinkable for our founders. That's why the Second Amendment made sense as a defense from a tyrannical government 200+ years ago, and makes no such sense today. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2017 : 07:15:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
I mainly opposed the ACA because of the cost and mandatory participation.
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The same goes for the military, or any other governmental function.
Why should Dave or Kil have to pay for a defence budget larger than the next ten greatest countries in the world together, especially since they might think its size is unnecessary.
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But you don't pay taxes just because you exist.
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No, I pay taxes because I live in a community who believes that everyone should contribute to the good of the community. And part of the good of the community is that everyone has access to good health care regardless of their economic standing. Another part of the good of the community is that every child has good education, hence good public schools, colleges, and universities - without tuition fees.
You have to have health insurance just because you exist. |
Yes. Everyone has to have health insurance, regardless of your fortune or luck in life.
Since no one knows before-hand where the lightning strikes, getting cancer or breaking bones from a car accident or just slipping on a banana-peel, every civilized country with the exception of USA recognizes that every citizen in that country should have health insurance regardless of economic standing, hence a single-payer system covering everyone.
Civilized people consider universal health insurance a, if not the, corner stone of civilization - all inclusive.
Cut the defense budget by 10% and funnel that money into an expanded single payer system you already have (is that medicare? or the VA?) to make it encompass everyone.
They added an amendment to make sure that income taxes are constitutional. I don't think income taxes are moral or constitutional without the 16th amendment. I think a sales or transaction tax may be better.
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From everyone according to their ability, to everyone according to their needs.
Income is a good indication of ability. Health care and school system cater for needs.
A healthy and well educated population makes for a healthy country.
But that's not the aim for Christians; poor and sick people are easier to convince to believe in God, so it's in the Religionist's interest to keep people sick and poor. And that seems to be the general agenda for the Republicans. And shamed, don't forget shamed.
If they haven't learned to think for themselves, it's easier to tell them what to think. Look at all the Trump-supporters... I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2017 : 07:30:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
| Everyone who declined to vote has forfeited the right to bitch about the government. |
Where is this written?
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It's written on Skeptic Friends Network by a dude calling himself Dr. Mabuse. But it's not like this was original my idea. It very much ties with what Dave_W. wrote earlier about the standard we walk by.
Loot, it's really simple. Most people have the right to cast a vote. In a democracy it's even your duty to partake in the democratic process. If you decline to partake in the democratic process, then you stand on the sideline. It you actively remove yourself from the game, you no longer have a say about it. Bitching or otherwise.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2017 : 07:34:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
| Probably because you would get no subsidies. Besides, the ACA wasn't designed for people who get insurance through their employers. |
What if I lose my job?
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That's the point of having a Single Payer Universal Healthcare systems. Everybody wins.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2017 : 12:36:04 [Permalink]
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| Taxes buy civilization. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2017 : 21:44:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Yes. Everyone has to have health insurance, regardless of your fortune or luck in life.
Since no one knows before-hand where the lightning strikes, getting cancer or breaking bones from a car accident or just slipping on a banana-peel, every civilized country with the exception of USA recognizes that every citizen in that country should have health insurance regardless of economic standing, hence a single-payer system covering everyone.
Civilized people consider universal health insurance a, if not the, corner stone of civilization - all inclusive. |
Just a quibble, but with universal health care available, nobody would need health insurance.
Insurance should be for stuff that might happen. But everyone needs health care at some point in their lives. No maybe about it.| Cut the defense budget by 10% and funnel that money into an expanded single payer system you already have (is that medicare? or the VA?) to make it encompass everyone. |
We could cut our defense budget by 60% and still spend more than the second-place defense spender, China. In 2015, we spent more than the next ten highest-spending countries combined.
However, we actually spent more ($632 billion vs. $596 billion) on Medicare than defense in 2015, so cutting 60% of the defense budget would tack on an extra 57% to Medicare. I'm not sure it'd be enough to cover everyone.
Oh, the V in VA stands for veterans. Only 7% or so of our population has served in the military, and only about a third of them are VA patients. Despite some administrative horrors, and longish waiting lists because it's hard to get doctors to become VA doctors, people getting VA care say it's the best in the world. And it looks like they're getting that excellent care for a little more than $10 per patient per year, which is astounding. That suggests our whole country could get VA care for $3.2 billion, which is a drop in the bucket. Pay the doctors 100 times as much, so they'll line up to be in the VA, and we'd still spend only half of what we do on Medicare, and cover the whole country.
That sounds way too good to be true. I must be missing something.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend
99 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2017 : 11:56:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Mostly because state governors refusing the Medicaid expansion to bridge the gap between the old Medicaid limit and the lowest income covered by the ACA. The silliest part of that refusal is that it represented free money to the states. A state governor who worries about the Federal deficit is abdicating his role. |
So I wet back to look at this. In Texas I found an estimate that 10% of the cost to expand Medicaid would be around $1 billion per year. The annual budget is $114 billion. $1 billion dollars is a lot of money but I am sure that in the Texas budget we can do a trade off for something else. It seems worth it to me to allow another 1 million people access to health insurance. |
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Christian Hedonist
Skeptic Friend
99 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2017 : 12:00:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Christian Hedonist
Originally posted by Dave W.
Mostly because state governors refusing the Medicaid expansion to bridge the gap between the old Medicaid limit and the lowest income covered by the ACA. The silliest part of that refusal is that it represented free money to the states. A state governor who worries about the Federal deficit is abdicating his role. |
So I wet back to look at this. In Texas I found an estimate that 10% of the cost to expand Medicaid would be around $1 billion per year. The annual budget is $114 billion. $1 billion dollars is a lot of money but I am sure that in the Texas budget we can do a trade off for something else. It seems worth it to me to allow another 1 million people access to health insurance.
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Ok, so in the 2016-2017 budget it had $2.2 billion in property tax relief. Just add half of that back when the reductions kick in and it can be paid for. |
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A Slow Gun Ban
