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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 07/27/2004 : 13:30:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
I read books that inform me that most American citizens are philosophical Idealists. An Idealist is one who is conscious of a dual reality. There is matter and there is spirit. Thought, especially theoretical thought, is a characteristic activity of spirit. Consciousness is a property of spirit. Consciousness can be detached from the concrete human subject. Matter is not and cannot be considered as the ultimate reality.
Perhaps you should expand your reading to other books. I can be a philosophical idealist and not see everything as a metaphysical subject. Especially ideals which have no metaphysical components.
quote:
Spirit as I have defined it above and as I understand it to be accepted by large segments of the community is a metaphysical reality. The thought of the ideal--as the author spoke of and as Lincoln certainly believed in--and which the Transcentendalist of that day accepted can certainly be regarded as metaphysical for Idealists.
So, a set of ethics (murder is bad, strealing is bad, etc) is also metaphysical in nature when applied to society in general or an individual? Quite frankly, this position is syntactically invalid.
Do you have sources, other than the suspect source which called the DOI a metaphysical document, which back up your claim that Transcendentalists of the 1860's believed as you assert?
quote:
If you are a materialist you do not accept the dual reality of the Idealist and would not accept the metaphysical character of anything I guess. I find that I do not accept it as possible to know anything to be metaphysical. This ideal is metaphysical for those who are philosophical Idealist.
Classic black and white thinking. The real world is myriad shades of grey. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 12:51:54 [Permalink]
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Ricky
I am suggesting that most Americans are philosophical Idealists. Most Americans believe that there are two fundamental classes of reality. There is matter and there is spirit and that spirit is the most important.
I have posted on this forum a topic called Idealism that deals with this matter. I am not an Idealist myself but having been raised in a culture in which this view is so prevalent it is difficult to "erase" the effects of this epistemological worldview. |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2004 : 12:58:56 [Permalink]
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Dancer
Transcendentalism is not only very difficult to spell I find it difficult to get my arms around. It was a significant movement launched in the mid-19th century and developed by intellectuals. The web of "theory" that makes up this religious/intellectual enterprise is very difficult for me to pin down. Lincoln was not a member but I understand that many members were closely associated with the emancipation abolitionist movement. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2004 : 06:05:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by coberst
Dancer
Transcendentalism is not only very difficult to spell I find it difficult to get my arms around. It was a significant movement launched in the mid-19th century and developed by intellectuals. The web of "theory" that makes up this religious/intellectual enterprise is very difficult for me to pin down. Lincoln was not a member but I understand that many members were closely associated with the emancipation abolitionist movement.
Then your whole premise suffers from subverted support.
You have jumped to an invalid conclusion of transcendentalist thinking was prevalent in the abolitionist movement. Truely, the moral concept that it is wrong to own another human being as property is purely a value judgement. It was more an expression of the values of faith which abolitionists shared. In the case of John Brown, it was married with the will to take up arms and abolish slavery by force. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2004 : 06:18:54 [Permalink]
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Dancer
I apologize for subverting support of my premiss. I am sure that the judgement about owning another is a value judgement. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2004 : 06:24:14 [Permalink]
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| The Gettysburg Address chokes me up when I read it. |
-Chaloobi
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coberst
Skeptic Friend
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2004 : 13:25:54 [Permalink]
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Chaloobi
I agree, it was a touching story. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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