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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 02/08/2005 : 09:26:15
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Fate/karma versus superstition and belief. Where do deities fit in? And where does the atheist stand. Can an atheist, who rejects deity/ies, believe in fate/karma?
Through contemplation, meditation, research,...
I think that Fate is different from karma in numerous ways... but yet they are also similiar...
According to webster Fate is "the principle or determining cause or will by which things in general are believed to come to be as they are or events to happen as they do "
According to Webster Karma is " the force generated by a person's actions held in Hinduism and Buddhism to perpetuate transmigration and in its ethical consequences to determine the nature of the person's next existence
Fate seems to be for the living....no concern for the dead... no belief in reincarnation...Although death is definetly everyones Fate...
Karma on the other hand has to do with ones actions in this life determining their existence in the next... An evolution of sorts... reincarnation goes hand in hand with karma...
Fate and Karma are the result of actions.... Karma is the spiritual equivalent to the scientific theory that states "with every action there is an equal and opposite reaction..."
Fate and Karma are also found in the philosophy and teachings of many churches although under a different guise... The early Christian church believed in reincarnation up until 553 C.E. when it was declared heresay
[Edited by Dr. Mabuse: Though this subject originated from the chat, it's more appropriate to continue it in the General Skepticism folder, so i'm moving it there. No hard feelings, Storm?]
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Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 02/08/2005 13:24:32
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 11:13:51 [Permalink]
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| Fate and Karma do not exist. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 11:21:12 [Permalink]
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If you do not believe or there's no evidence for the supernatural (Non-sequiter?), I agree with Astropin on Karma and Fate if pertaining to predestined action.
However, Fate can be a result of a pattern of consistent actions and choices over a period of time. And no correction to the actions. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 11:28:29 [Permalink]
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| Depends on your definition of atheism, you definition of god. Atheists can just about believe any stupid thing they want to believe. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 13:20:47 [Permalink]
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Bah! It's all the luck of the draw. Action and reaction followed by more of the same with outside influences intreviening, one way or another.
But, it's as a good way as any to explain outcomes for those who refuse to face the reality of the results of their or other's actions. Explaining something by 'fate' is no more than after-the-fact prophecy.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 13:34:23 [Permalink]
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Yeah their are plenty of atheists I do not want to be associated with, such as those who believe in fate or karma.
Please stop equating scientific theory to spirtualism, I'm feeling ill. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 13:48:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Fate/karma versus superstition and belief. Where do deities fit in? And where does the atheist stand. Can an atheist, who rejects deity/ies, believe in fate/karma?
Through contemplation, meditation, research,...
I think that Fate is different from karma in numerous ways... but yet they are also similiar...
According to webster Fate is "the principle or determining cause or will by which things in general are believed to come to be as they are or events to happen as they do "
According to Webster Karma is " the force generated by a person's actions held in Hinduism and Buddhism to perpetuate transmigration and in its ethical consequences to determine the nature of the person's next existence
Fate seems to be for the living....no concern for the dead... no belief in reincarnation...Although death is definetly everyones Fate...
Karma on the other hand has to do with ones actions in this life determining their existence in the next... An evolution of sorts... reincarnation goes hand in hand with karma...
Fate and Karma are the result of actions.... Karma is the spiritual equivalent to the scientific theory that states "with every action there is an equal and opposite reaction..."
Fate and Karma are also found in the philosophy and teachings of many churches although under a different guise... The early Christian church believed in reincarnation up until 553 C.E. when it was declared heresay
[Edited by Dr. Mabuse: Though this subject originated from the chat, it's more appropriate to continue it in the General Skepticism folder, so i'm moving it there. No hard feelings, Storm?]
OK.
Fate is those events that we cannot control and are predestined for us. Fate does not exist. We all make decisions which change the future for ourselves and others. "Fate" is a rationalization to explain why bad things happen to good people.
Karma is not solely the perview of Buddhaism and Hinduism. There are components in many different religions including Christianity. Karma does not only apply to future lives, but also the current life. The idea that what you put out, you get back. Religious groups and some atheists believe in this as their actions will come back to bite them in this life. Any reference to a future life is meaningless to atheists and that part of karma is largely ignored by atheists as it is meaningless to them.
Deities fit in according to their place in the particular religion. Some Christians belive that fate and karma flow from God and are an integral part of the functionality of God. Wiccans do not believe in fate, but believe in karma. Some atheists see karma as being treated as they have treated others.
Fate is predestination for the mortal being. It is the cosmic "shit happens".
And the Christian Church outlawed reincarnation at the Niocene Councel of 535. Not 553. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 02/08/2005 13:49:35 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 14:52:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
And the Christian Church outlawed reincarnation at the Niocene Councel of 535. Not 553.
In 553 A.D., Justinian convoked the Fifth General Council of the Church to discuss the controversy over the so-called "Three Chapters." These were writings of three theologians whose views bordered on the heretical. Justinian wanted the writings to be condemned and he expected the council to oblige him.
He had been trying to coerce the pope into agreeing with him since 545 A.D. He had essentially arrested the pope in Rome and brought him to Constantinople, where he held him for four years. When the pope escaped and later refused to attend the council, Justinian went ahead and convened it without him.
This council produced fourteen new anathemas against the authors of the Three Chapters and other Christian theologians. The eleventh anathema included Origen's name in a list of heretics.
The first anathema reads: "If anyone asserts the fabulous preexistence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema." ("Restoration" means the return of the soul to union with God. Origenists believed that this took place through a path of reincarnation.) It would seem that the death blow had been struck against Origenism and reincarnation in Christianity.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 15:24:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
And the Christian Church outlawed reincarnation at the Niocene Councel of 535. Not 553.
In 553 A.D., Justinian convoked the Fifth General Council of the Church to discuss the controversy over the so-called "Three Chapters." These were writings of three theologians whose views bordered on the heretical. Justinian wanted the writings to be condemned and he expected the council to oblige him.
He had been trying to coerce the pope into agreeing with him since 545 A.D. He had essentially arrested the pope in Rome and brought him to Constantinople, where he held him for four years. When the pope escaped and later refused to attend the council, Justinian went ahead and convened it without him.
This council produced fourteen new anathemas against the authors of the Three Chapters and other Christian theologians. The eleventh anathema included Origen's name in a list of heretics.
The first anathema reads: "If anyone asserts the fabulous preexistence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema." ("Restoration" means the return of the soul to union with God. Origenists believed that this took place through a path of reincarnation.) It would seem that the death blow had been struck against Origenism and reincarnation in Christianity.
http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen6.html
It was 325, sorry. The last part of souls pre-existing before being assigned bodies was finally expunged in 553. Reincarnation (moving to live an additional coporeal existance past this one) was outlawed in 325 at the Councel of Nicea. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 15:32:00 [Permalink]
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Fate, karma...well perhaps with different terminology.
I can go for "what goes around comes around" but only when there is a direct relationship between the events. Where some people seem lucky or unlucky, I'd assume there were other variables such as clumsiness or wins a lot of contests because they enter a lot of contests.
But now as to fate, well there you have to get into the time dimension and how it might be viewed. It is very possible future time does not exist until we get there. But, if you take a light wave which represents time coming from the distant Universe, and, if you were able to move about in the time dimension, you could intersect that light wave anywhere along it's route. In such a case, future time and past time would exist before and after the location you were at. So does that indicate the future could already exist? Since we can't travel in the time dimension we cannot really say one way or the other. And we can't say if such a time dimension goes out in one direction, or in an infinite number of directions. So fate's preexistence is unknown. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 21:05:24 [Permalink]
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So, beskeptical, you ever read Stephen Baxter - just curious.
On the issue raised by Storm:
Fate speaks of a predetermined outcome. And to some extent that may be true. Many of our decisions are based on our previous knowledge and experiences, where fate can seem to be the answer to why we make the choices we do and find ourselves in the situations we do. I do agree with Valiant Dancer, fate doesn't really exist and with filthy, it's how we explain away making the same poor decisions over and over.
As for Karma...well...can't see any validity to the concept except on the personal level, i.e., treating another with respect will cause them to treat you with respect (well, I can dream right?).
Anyway - my two cents. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2005 : 22:50:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Fate, karma...well perhaps with different terminology.
I can go for "what goes around comes around" but only when there is a direct relationship between the events.
I don't think there has to be a direct relationship.
Whenever I help someone in need, and they ask afterwards what I would like as compensation for my trouble, I just say "If you happen upon someone else in need, do what you can to help instead of just pass on by. That's all I ask."
A kind of "Pass-it-on scheme". I hope for a ripple effect. Eventually I might be on the receiving end. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 13:33:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Fate, karma...well perhaps with different terminology.
I can go for "what goes around comes around" but only when there is a direct relationship between the events.
I don't think there has to be a direct relationship.
Whenever I help someone in need, and they ask afterwards what I would like as compensation for my trouble, I just say "If you happen upon someone else in need, do what you can to help instead of just pass on by. That's all I ask."
A kind of "Pass-it-on scheme". I hope for a ripple effect. Eventually I might be on the receiving end.
There is a level where all of us who act responsibly and kindly create a kind and responsible society we all live in. I still include that in my use here of direct relationship. An indirect one would be, I'm nice to someone so I later win the lottery for my good kharma. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2005 : 13:37:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
So, beskeptical, you ever read Stephen Baxter - just curious.
No but looking at a bib. of his novels I might pick one up. Any you recommend? |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2005 : 11:33:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
No but looking at a bib. of his novels I might pick one up. Any you recommend?
His "Manifold: <insert word here>" novels are excellent.
I've been tempted to pick up his novel "Evolution", in which he supposedly makes the history of human evolution into a novel sized story. Looks pretty interesting.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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