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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 03/25/2005 : 11:47:49
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[This is a continuation of this thread]quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Yes, but the original comment was in regards to white evangelical opinion, not overall opinion.
Given that the reporters these days are often referring to the "conservative Christian protestors" outside Schiavo's hospice, the fact that the "white evangelical" opinion closely matches the opinion of the general population is very surprising. One would, after all, expect it to be 20-something percent against feeding-tube replacement, when CNN claims it is only twenty-something percent for replacement. In other words, the CNN poll would need to be so biased as to be backwards. Claiming a "liberal bias" isn't enough, in my book, to demonstrate one that large, especially when the FOX numbers aren't tremendously different.
Of course, I thought you were being facetious, anyway.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 12:18:38 [Permalink]
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Ack.
CNN just had an interview with Deepak Chopra who, despite being full of crap as both a doctor and a spiritualist, was asked all sorts of questions about Terry Schiavo as if he were some sort of expert.
At least the caption underneath him only said, "Author." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 13:37:45 [Permalink]
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| Good points, really my left bias polls comment is based on Bush favorability numbers from the various major news sites duing the run-up last year, I found MSNBC.com to be the most left reader heavy at the time but have recently noticed the Foxification of MSNBC.com, due I sure to the pressures of ratings pionts and whatnot. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 13:52:28 [Permalink]
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And:
quote:
Discovery Institute News
1511 3rd Ave Suite 808 - Seattle, WA 98101 - (206) 292-0401 x126
Ralph Nader and Wesley J. Smith Say "Let Terri Live"
By: Ralph Nader and Wesley J. Smith
Ralph Nader and Wesley J. Smith
March 24, 2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consumer Advocate Ralph Nader and Discovery Institute Senior Fellow Wesley J. Smith, author of the award winning book Culture of Death: The Assault on Medical Ethics in America call upon the Florida Courts and Governor Jeb Bush to take any legal action available to let Terri Schiavo live.
“A profound injustice is being inflicted on Terri Schiavo,” Nader and Smith asserted today. “Worse, this slow death by dehydration is being imposed upon her under the color of law, in proceedings in which every benefit of the doubt—and there are many doubts in this case—has been given to her death, rather than her continued life.”
Among the many injustices in this case, Nader and Smith point to the following:
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 14:01:35 [Permalink]
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They have a point, I understand the need to let a body die, but the way they go about it makes them and us(anti-reinsurtionists) look bad...
God strike me dead for creating that word... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 14:02:19 [Permalink]
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Oh, one more thought on this matter: any doctor who suggests a diagnosis for Terry Schiavo after seeing videotapes and/or reading medical records, without actually performing a proper examination of her, should have his/her license to practice medicine revoked. After all, one of the critical parts of medical ethics is to avoid offering a medical opinion if you haven't personally examined the patient.
This includes Sen. Bill Frist, MD, as well as the latest "she's been misdiagnosed" schmuck down in Florida. Yes, Frist denies that his comments were a "diagnosis," but given both his position as a Senator and his position as a doctor, even non-diagnosis opinions carry a lot of weight with the people who listen to him. And it's absolutely clear that in his professional opinion, there's a significant risk that she's been misdiagnosed, despite the fact that he hasn't examined her. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 14:32:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Oh, one more thought on this matter: any doctor who suggests a diagnosis for Terry Schiavo after seeing videotapes and/or reading medical records, without actually performing a proper examination of her, should have his/her license to practice medicine revoked. After all, one of the critical parts of medical ethics is to avoid offering a medical opinion if you haven't personally examined the patient.
This includes Sen. Bill Frist, MD, as well as the latest "she's been misdiagnosed" schmuck down in Florida. Yes, Frist denies that his comments were a "diagnosis," but given both his position as a Senator and his position as a doctor, even non-diagnosis opinions carry a lot of weight with the people who listen to him. And it's absolutely clear that in his professional opinion, there's a significant risk that she's been misdiagnosed, despite the fact that he hasn't examined her.
Yes. This turned into one of my pet peeves as soon as I read of it.
I do not think I'd like to have Dr. Frist threating me for anything, if it's for no more than a paper cut. And I'd be in big trouble if I were to show up with something real, like snakebite, or something.
A pity there's no way to charge this quack with malpractice -- is there?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 03/25/2005 14:34:48 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 15:02:24 [Permalink]
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The "bottom line" rears it's ugly head again:
quote:
Conservatives Invoke Case in Fund-Raising Campaigns
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
Published: March 25, 2005
ideotape of Terri Schiavo blinking at her parents has inspired donations from people around the country to the foundation set up to help pay for the family's legal battle. But many other groups are soliciting donations in her name as well, some for a much broader agenda.
"Help Save Terri Schiavo's Life!" says the Web site of the Traditional Values Coalition, a Christian conservative group best known for its campaigns against gay rights. Next to a link to the Web site of her parents' foundation is a pitch to "become an active supporter of the Traditional Values Coalition by pledging a monthly gift."
Evidently, a great many groups are hustling cash in Terri's name, some of them even sincere. But all too many are similiar to Randall Terry's clusterfuck, and much of that money will most likely go to support various, political agendas. Disgusting!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 17:08:06 [Permalink]
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| If someone wanted to make a case against misuse of donor's money, here is where to start looking. Thanks for the heads up, filthy. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Timgraysr
New Member
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 17:36:59 [Permalink]
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I do apologize for not responding. I am not a Bot. The Doctor I was refering to in the Terri Schaivo matter that Believes she was miss-diagnosed is Neuro physicist Tom I believe Chassire of the Mayo clinic. Not at all related to friends or drinking buddies with the Schindlers. The Bloated thing was out of line. I was angry and still am. But, I believe in my heart from what I have seen with my own eyes that she will die tonight as a result of torture. The rule of sevens: Seven minuts without air, days without water and weeks without food. This is day seven without water. Do not for the sake of liberalism question who I get my information from. Today CBS news interviewed Dr. Kavorkian from his prison cell. I hope death comes soon for Terri to end the suffering. She is not brain dead and even those who argue that know it isn't true. Unless they have never been to a convolescent center. My question though was and still is simply.
If she is brain dead and can feel nothing. And is aware of nothing. And is in a place where nothing could hurt,harm or discomfort her in anyway. If this is a fact of truth, then what harm would it have caused to put the tube back into her and send her home to her parents that cling to their hope for a miracle. The husband did not care and if you argue that then you have not been listening to the news on the matter. If it were my daughter someone else would have died first. Well anyway it is too late for her. And now we are clearly a nation controlled by the judges who were intended to be our weakest link. I am done for now but will reply. |
Tim Gray |
| Edited by - Timgraysr on 03/25/2005 17:38:52 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 19:03:20 [Permalink]
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Timgraysr:
"For the sake of liberalism?" You've got to be kidding. The point stands unanswered: you hypocritically deride everyone here for listening to "just one opinion," and then trot out "Tom I believe Chassire," who has, by definition, precisely one opinion.
And bizarrely, you claim that Michael Schiavo "did not care" about his wife. I don't know what news you've been listening to, but everything I've seen and read lately says quite the opposite. Even the Guardian Ad Litem's report says so. The man very much still loves his wife. That's why this matters, even if Terri were just a blob of jelly.
And if he doesn't, then what possible motivation does Michael have for doing what he's been doing?
You also wrote:quote:
If it were my daughter someone else would have died first.
The above shows a disturbing disdain for human life, which is also hypocritical to your entire point, which is that Terri's life shouldn't be thrown away. Yet there you are, suggesting that lives do, indeed, have differing intrinsic values. Who the hell are you to decide how Terri valued her own life?quote:
And now we are clearly a nation controlled by the judges who were intended to be our weakest link.
Where is your evidence for this claim? Don't you watch Schoolhouse Rock? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 19:07:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
I do apologize for not responding.
No worries. Everyone (with the possible exception of me, Dave, and filthy ) have a life beside Skeptic Friends Network.
Take the time you need, and do that especially when composing post to SFN.
quote:
The Doctor I was referring to in the Terri Schaivo matter that Believes she was miss-diagnosed is Neuro physicist Tom I believe Chassire of the Mayo clinic. Not at all related to friends or drinking buddies with the Schindlers.
Ah... But have he personally examined Terri? Or how much medical data regarding her as he examined. Dave has a good point in that doctors should avoid making statements about a person's medical state unless they actually met/examined her.
quote:
But, I believe in my heart from what I have seen with my own eyes that she will die tonight as a result of torture.
To a person like you and me, withholding water and food is torture. But to Terri who obviously have no cognitive process, ending her artificial supply of sustenance will enable her to do what she would/should have done 15 years ago.
As for the suffering part: Have another look at tomk80's post, and read about endorphins.
quote:
Do not for the sake of liberalism question who I get my information from.
It has nothing to do with liberalism. It's about Skepticism. You said it, now show us the evidence.
But about the number seven, as you describe it, seems reasonable give or take some.
quote:
I hope death comes soon for Terri to end the suffering.
The way I see it, keeping her alive so many years beyond her expiring date is torture. I hope her death will end the suffering of all involved: her parents need to let go, her husband needs closure.
quote:
She is not brain dead and even those who argue that know it isn't true.
Who has argued that she was brain dead? I can't recall anyone here at SFN has...
I bet it is Christian Right Wing Activists that has spread lies about critical-thinking and scientific oriented people, claiming they said Terri's brain-dead.
quote:
Unless they have never been to a convolescent center. My question though was and still is simply.
I watched my mother-in-law fade away in cancer. She weighed less than 50Kg when she expired, pumped full of morphine so she wouldn't feel so much pain. Keeping her like that for 15 years seem to me unreasonable, even criminal. Two weeks before she died I refused to consider the fact she might not make it. Not even when the doctor said they were taking her off kemo-therapy because it was making more harm than good.
The doctor wouldn't say it, but he knew the case was hopeless, but was relived when we finally accepted the inevitable.
quote:
If she is brain dead and can feel nothing. And is aware of nothing. And is in a place where nothing could hurt, harm or discomfort her in anyway. If this is a fact of truth, then what harm would it have caused to put the tube back into her and send her home to her parents that cling to their hope for a miracle.
But what purpose would that serve? Their desperate need for a miracle that won't happen can't be good for them. They need to let go, instead of caring for a puppet that only looks like Terri. The daughter they knew is gone forever.
quote:
The husband did not care and if you argue that then you have not been listening to the news on the matter.
Really? And you believe anything and everything you see on the news? What channels do you watch, FOX News?
The Religious Right and it's Neo-Con media controlling cohorts are obviously spinning the story to get higher ratings.
quote:
And now we are clearly a nation controlled by the judges who were intended to be our weakest link.
No you are clearly in a nation where politicians are violating the constitution in order to further their own personal political agenda. I'm not a religious guy, but every single day I thank God that I don't live in the country that elected George W Bush president.
I don't have a problem with America as such, but I can't stand the people responsible for the present fuck-up in the White House.
quote:
I am done for now but will reply.
Please do, I'm looking forward to it.
And I'd like point out that my attack on the right was made to prove a point: I'm usually not this rabid, I just tried spinning the same way the neo-cons do.
The judges that have been involved in the Terri-case have dutifully done their job. You shouldn't demonize them for doing that, just because you disapprove of their rulings. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 19:37:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Ah... But have he personally examined Terri? Or how much medical data regarding her as he examined. Dave has a good point in that doctors should avoid making statements about a person's medical state unless they actually met/examined her.
I really did mean examine. The guy that I spoke of (as did Timgraysr) has seen Terri on video, read some of the history, and visited with her for 45 minutes, but admittedly has not given her a proper medical evaluation. In other words, his "misdiagnosis" claim is unfounded and unethical.quote:
Who has argued that she was brain dead? I can't recall anyone here at SFN has...
I bet it is Christian Right Wing Activists that has spread lies about critical-thinking and scientific oriented people, claiming they said Terri's brain-dead.
In fairness, people here have said, "she is brain-dead," but I would think that those who have would say differently now that brain-death vs. PVS has been discussed. Nobody has argued to Tomgraysr specifically that she is brain-dead, though, so he seems a bit dogmatic on that point.
[Edit to add a verb where I none - Dave W.] |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 19:47:28 [Permalink]
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I must ask: where was all of this outpouring of grief, genuine and crocodile, for Sun Hudson?
quote:
Life-Support Stopped for 6-Month-Old in Houston
[On March 15th,] Sun Hudson, the nearly 6-month-old at Texas Children's Hospital in Houston, diagnosed and slowly dying with a rare form of dwarfism (thanatophoric dysplasia), was taken off the ventilator that was keeping him alive. A Houston court authorized the hospital's action, and Sun died shortly thereafter. Today's Houston Chronicle and Dallas Morning News have most of the details.
Sun was black and his parents were not able to pay the medical costs, you see.
Fucking hyprocrits, all!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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jimmy
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 21:52:40 [Permalink]
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Why people make big deal about a brain dead person who is dying. Trying to discuss whether she should be kept alive or not is not important when 30,000 children ( who are very much active and alive ) die every day in this world because of malnutrion and poverty. It would be good idea to spend that money which was spent on Terry to feed poor children.
There is a big economic cost to saving Terry. Why dont her parents pay her medical bill instead of all of us tax payers. As in America we are supposed to take our own responsibility. Isnt it? Wow what a stupid thought?
Hey folks, we are all paying for her medical bill and why dont the people who wants to save her should pay the bill rather then all of us. By the way we want tax cuts on one side and we want to spend more money on Terry like folks. I hope money goes on trees. No wonder this stupid Bush has created biggest deficit that any country has seen in the history of Universe. Nothing against her but nobody talks about how we should pay for her illness. Should not we spend money on something else? Like poverty etc?? |
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