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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2005 : 17:34:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Timgraysr
...There is a lot of money to be gained when she is "body dead". No one that knew them agrees with what he said. Those that have spoken out have done so to accuse him of lying and of saying horindus things about her including " is the bitch dead yet". I was pleased to learn that a $50,000 fee was placed on his head today via an e-mail or something.
I do believe in circles. So if he and the fact that green is blue when ordered by the courts are your arguments, again I say "Shame on you".
No there is no money to be gained. That has been well supported here. If you question the millions offered to Michael then provide your evidence. I provided the direct statements from Michael's attorney confirming the offers of money were made and turned down.
The comments about, "is [she] dead yet?", were claimed by a nut case who it turned out had never worked in the nursing home she claimed to have heard the statements while working in.
Got any more evidence than your imagination to support your BS?
As I said above, why is everyone so sure Michael Schiavo is a bad person? Is it because if he were merely a good person with a different opinion then we'd merely have a battle between two equally valid compassionate opinions instead of a battle between good and evil?
I am an atheist but apparently if you want a good Christian opinion on the ethics see my post above. Their position is completely in line with Michael's decision. The only difference is the mistaken position on whether or not Terri can be fed by mouth. And since that is also easily resolved, I'd say they agree with Michael's opinion.
The real issue here is why has it been so easy to find these compelling points on the Internet with a few minutes of investigation and all the reporters on the main media outlets can't seem to do the same? I can only conclude they like the story the way it is. You seem to be in the same boat. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/27/2005 05:36:16 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 19:39:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
And, no, people in comas do not all drool, unless you place them face down or in a position where the saliva will follow gravity.
Well, the question wasn't whether they drool, it was whether they drown - in their own saliva, that is - on a regular basis, unless the SOP is to keep suction going within their mouths, constantly.quote:
Which makes me wonder even more. Is Dr Stevens incompetent or a liar?
Either way, I have a feeling that he's going to get added to my list of "people who should be stripped of the license to practice medicine" just over Terri Schiavo. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 19:57:56 [Permalink]
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More on Dr. Cheshire:
A Diagnosis With a Dose of Religion (NY Times-registration required)
For the benefit of anyone who doesn't feel like signing up with the Times, here are some highlights from the article:
quote:
Mr. Bush called Dr. Cheshire a "renowned neurologist," but he is not widely known in the neurology or bioethics fields. Asked about him, Dr. Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, replied, "Who?"
Of course, "renowned" depends on the social/professional circle involved. Maybe what Jebbie meant was "renowned among far-right fanatics for putting a scientific-sounding gloss on our theologically-based beliefs". However, "renowned among professionals dealing with this subject on an ongoing basis" doesn't seem to apply.
quote:
The clinic said in a statement that his work on the Schiavo case was not related to his work at the clinic and that the state had invited his opinion. "He observed the patient at her bedside and conducted an extensive review of her medical history but did not conduct an examination," the statement said.
Dr. Caplan said that was not good enough. "There is just no excuse for going in and making any pronouncement about the state that Terri Schiavo is in unless you're going to go in and do some form of technologically mediated scanning that would overturn what's on the record already," he said.
Good gravy, even I know better than to tell you what's wrong with your console and what has to be done to fix it before I've done all the relevant testing. One would hope that a doctor would have as much circumspection as a mere electronics techie.
quote:
Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist and medical ethicist at the University of Minnesota Medical School who has examined Ms. Schiavo on behalf of the Florida courts and declared her to be irredeemably brain-damaged, said, "I have no idea who this Cheshire is," and added: "He has to be bogus, a pro-life fanatic. You'll not find any credible neurologist or neurosurgeon to get involved at this point and say she's not vegetative."
He said there was no doubt that Ms. Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state. "Her CAT scan shows massive shrinkage of the brain," he said. "Her EEG is flat - flat. There's no electrical activity coming from her brain."
That brings something else to mind. I'm not as up on this case as Beskeptigal, so I tried looking for information about the "is the bitch dead yet" allegation. What I found is that this is all over the 'net (over in the wingnut section) and that there are all sorts of allegations of similar scurrility- that her husband has prevented medically ordered procedures from being carried out, that she suffers from ulcerated bedsores due to his interference in her treatment, that bone scans from 1991 showed evidence of a history of physical abuse and that these have been covered up by her husband...
Now, what I want to know is- the legal battle has involved examinations by court-appointed physicians who were responsible to the courts- not any family member. How is it that a specialist making an examination under these circumstances would not perceive such obvious evidence of egregious abuse as the wingnuts are alleging? Judges hearing a case like this can compel the production of medical records. How is it that tests done after she fell into a PVS which supposedly show previous physical abuse would escape notice in a review of her medical history?
This stuff smells to me an awful lot like the ad hoc the-dog-ate-my-homework "theories" put forward by Mumia Abu-Jamal's supporters to try to exonerate him.
Beskeptigal, if you have an accessible reference to the real skinny on the person making the "is the bitch dead" allegation, I'd appreciate your posting it. So far, all I've been able to find is a secondhand reference to their not working in the right place at the right time.
Now I've gotta go scrub my brain with Brasso to remove the residue of the cyber-hatefreakery I've just seen, and see if the kitties can purr me out of the "lets just go extinct and have done with it" mood that exposure to such always induces. 
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"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 20:49:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
Now, what I want to know is- the legal battle has involved examinations by court-appointed physicians who were responsible to the courts- not any family member. How is it that a specialist making an examination under these circumstances would not perceive such obvious evidence of egregious abuse as the wingnuts are alleging? Judges hearing a case like this can compel the production of medical records. How is it that tests done after she fell into a PVS which supposedly show previous physical abuse would escape notice in a review of her medical history?
Moreover, how is it that doctors hired by Terri's parents have not been screaming to the press about such abuses? Why is there no mention of such things in Dr. Wolfson's report - for which he reviewed all of her medical history? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 21:16:03 [Permalink]
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| If I keep smacking myself in the forehead every time I find something unbelievable in connection with this situation, people are going to think that I have been abused. Anyway, check out Scientology Vs Terri Schindler Schiavo. I'm no fan of Scientology, but these folks seem to be taking things way too far. They clearly - for example - do not understand image compression artifacts. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 00:35:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Anyway, check out Scientology Vs Terri Schindler Schiavo.
Well, I've got to admit I am impressed.  
The way that the same few basic ingredients- a little bit of pareidolia, a sprinkling of paranoia, some lack of knowledge, never a grain of salt- can be combined to make so many different dishes is a wonder.  |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 01:47:18 [Permalink]
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I saw some video of Ms Schiavo on TV last night, and I have to say I was really surprised. These were some of the "cherry-picked" videos that supposedly show Ms Schiavo being responsive. Well, I didn't see anything that looked like her eyes were tracking anything, or anything that looked like a response. I can only imagine that there are dozens or even hundreds of hours that undermine the argument of the aware/responsive Terri.
Also, today's NY Times reports that Michael Schiavo said that Terri was very particular about how she looked and would be mortified at the tapes being shown publicly [which bolsters my argument that if she had awareness and any ability to communicate, she'd've fought them when they tried to dress her in such horrid clothes]
One other thing, in response to the claim that Terri has been trying to say Ahhh waanna ...[live] My husband said, "Wouldn't she have said, 'I'm thirsty?'" |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 02:10:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
...
Beskeptigal, if you have an accessible reference to the real skinny on the person making the "is the bitch dead" allegation, I'd appreciate your posting it. So far, all I've been able to find is a secondhand reference to their not working in the right place at the right time.
....
I had heard about the case on AirAmerica. Now that you ask, I have investigated further. While the nurse may have worked with Terri as a nurses' aide her testimony was found to be completely incredible by Judge Greer.
Read Iyer's affidavit yourself and see how absurd it is. Iyer claims Terri talked to her on a regular basis and that Iyer's notes in the chart re the communication were deleted each day after she charted. "Whole pages were always deleted when I came back the next shift."
Judge Greer's legal ruling on the incredibility of Iyer's affidavit explains how absurd he found her claims to be. (page 6+) |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 02:17:19 [Permalink]
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So Timmay!, Again, I ask, where is the outrage over Sun Hudson?
Is it OK in your world for a hospital to remove life support from an infant against the wishes of that infant's family?
As to you wishes that somebody actually kill Mr Schaivo.... You and all like you should seek professional help. You are seriously mentally ill.
As to your claims to not be an evangelical? riiiiiiighht....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 03:45:25 [Permalink]
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Holy mackk'l, Andy! This Iyer twit is actually a registered nurse?
Friends, I've spent more time than most in hospitals and I've never encountered one like her. I have yet to meet the nurse that would let herself be bullied by a patient's family, whatever their status. It just ain't in their nature. Do hospice staffs commonly hire this sort of person? If so, I'd prefer to die somewhere else.
Look, here's a little advice; if you ever have the misfortune to land in the hospital for a longish stay, don't worry about the doctors -- they don't know what's going on. Curry favor with the nursing staff. And you've got to be damned subtle about it because they are hip to that shit too, even the candy-stripers. But if you work it just right, you can dip all of the snuff you want so long as you don't spit in the duck.
I found Iyer's statement to be a remarkable fabrication, worthy of a Liar's Club award. It goes against virtually all of the known evidence and includes a pretty bold intimation that another of the staff was committing murder.
So now, the question I have is: can she get away with this? Has she not committed perjury?
This whole thing is becoming a story worthy of the WWN.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 04:59:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Holy mackk'l, Andy! This Iyer twit is actually a registered nurse?
Let me say this as one who can put the RN tag at the end of my name, and as one who has (and foolishly sometimes still does) act in managerial capacity over RN's.
The initials RN, despite efforts of nursing schools, does not translate into an ability to think critically. This is a daily struggle for me when acting in a supervisory capacity. In fact, I'd say that critical thinking skills are often in short supply in the nursing profession. Of course, doctors (regardless of brand, MD/DO/etc) aren't much better in this regard generally. All nurses (and doctors) are taught critical thinking skills, but the focus is narrow. Assessment, recognize problem, plan appropriate course of action, reassess. And there are always people who cannot apply even these basic steps.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 05:07:15 [Permalink]
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I should also add:
It is a criminal offense here in FL to alter the medical record of a patient. If any nurse ever suspects that their notes have been deliberately changed, they need only contact the department of health. That is a serious accusation, one that is highly likely to prompt an investigation, especially in a high profile case like this one has been in FL for years.
Also:
I drove by the hospice where Terri Schaivo is yesterday. It is completely ridiculous. There were easily over 100 people there, setting up tents and waving signs. If I lived within a mile of there (I live about 4or5 miles away) I'd be complaining to the city/county to have the idiots removed and asking where their permit to assemble was...
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 05:26:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Holy mackk'l, Andy! This Iyer twit is actually a registered nurse?
Friends, I've spent more time than most in hospitals and I've never encountered one like her. I have yet to meet the nurse that would let herself be bullied by a patient's family, whatever their status. It just ain't in their nature. Do hospice staffs commonly hire this sort of person? If so, I'd prefer to die somewhere else.
Look, here's a little advice; if you ever have the misfortune to land in the hospital for a longish stay, don't worry about the doctors -- they don't know what's going on. Curry favor with the nursing staff. And you've got to be damned subtle about it because they are hip to that shit too, even the candy-stripers. But if you work it just right, you can dip all of the snuff you want so long as you don't spit in the duck.
I found Iyer's statement to be a remarkable fabrication, worthy of a Liar's Club award. It goes against virtually all of the known evidence and includes a pretty bold intimation that another of the staff was committing murder.
So now, the question I have is: can she get away with this? Has she not committed perjury?
This whole thing is becoming a story worthy of the WWN.
I think she could be prosecuted for perjury but that goes to the question of who ever gets prosecuted for perjury? Only the political targets and a few malicious cases I believe.
What I wonder is will Michael Schiavo sue any of the characters in this play for libel and/or slander?
As to Ns Iyer, she claims to be a registered nurse but then do we believe that? Who knows? But she wouldn't be the first pathological liar to gain the title. That is what I believe she likely is, a pathological liar. It is an interesting personality disorder. She seems to have the classic symptoms. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 05:35:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
I should also add:
It is a criminal offense here in FL to alter the medical record of a patient. If any nurse ever suspects that their notes have been deliberately changed, they need only contact the department of health. That is a serious accusation, one that is highly likely to prompt an investigation, especially in a high profile case like this one has been in FL for years.
Also:
I drove by the hospice where Terri Schaivo is yesterday. It is completely ridiculous. There were easily over 100 people there, setting up tents and waving signs. If I lived within a mile of there (I live about 4or5 miles away) I'd be complaining to the city/county to have the idiots removed and asking where their permit to assemble was...
While it sounds like a circus, I do find it disgusting the news media is paying an inordinate amount of attention to a mere 100 demonstrators. We had several thousand in every big city around the country and smaller numbers in smaller towns plus people all over the world protesting the Iraq war last week and got very little attention. Then there was the 500,000+ protesters at the NY Republican convention and another million or so at the women's rights rally on the Capitol Lawn a few years ago that also got relatively little attention.
But I guess there is an incredible amount of Internet chatter on the Schiavo case so I can't totally blame the media in this case. |
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