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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2006 : 22:42:56 [Permalink]
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I tried to listen to Atwill on Infidelguy. He wasn't much of a speaker. But you have peaked my curiosity about reading more of Josephus. I hear about his writings all the time but never thought to seek out any compendium. I'll have to see what's out there.
Having parallel writings would be the kind of evidence I was speaking of. But it's best if one can read the originals. I have found some claims that writings say this or that are often not the same as I read them. Like Nostradamus for example. People are always claiming this or that Quatrain is so close to this or that event but when you read the actual Quatrain, it isn't close at all. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/13/2006 22:45:09 |
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topos
New Member
19 Posts |
 Posted - 08/14/2006 : 08:51:46 [Permalink]
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I agree that interveiw doesn't start off very well. Atwill's betting argument isn't very effective I don't think and I've been meaning to post something about it on the IG site. It's really only a weakened form of the argument he uses later in the show, that is, that if all of these parallels are imaginary, let's see somebody else do the same thing with any famous historical figure of their choice, like Napolean, etc. They might be able to select out parallels (and there is a book doing this for Julius Caesar) but they won't be in the right order or in the right geographical location as are Titus' exploits in JW. Then you add to that the Josephus-Flavian connection, the actual fact that it was TItus who fulfilled Jesus' ostensible prophesies, and more, and you ahve what I believe is an absolutely airtight case, based just on accepted history. We can expect more corroboration will be found once people start looking for it. Atwill suggests this later on in the interview.
I would urge you to listen fuirther into the interview, though, because I think you will be rewarded eventually. It starts off kind of weak, but it is long and parts of it are really good. There is also somebody who calls in with a Josephus Whitson translation in hand to check Atwill but really this is not necessary.
Generally in CM the relevant parts of Josephus are reproduced. Atwill uses the Whitson translation as it was done hundreds of years ago and so is in the public domain and can be reprinted freely. I bought a Whitson copy though for myself, after reading CM, as it is quite a bargain from Amazon at about $30 I think anda you get all of the books in one, and hardcover. Caesar's Messiah though is also a bargain at $11. You really ought to get them both at once to save shipping. It will make checking claims a lot easier if you have the claims handy. Il'll be interested in what you conclude.
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 06:25:04 [Permalink]
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| Hi, There is one very big problem with Atwill's theory. Most of the research I've done [including the World Book encyclopedia 2006, and several Bibles] state that St. Paul wrote his letters to the newly formed Christian churches from the late 40's AD to the 50's AD. If this is true than this totally destroys Atwill's theory that the so called made up Jesus story was written around the 76 AD. You don't constantly risk your life and make three voyages all over the Mediterranian for a character that hasn't been created yet. GK Paul |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 08/21/2006 06:30:57 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 07:21:33 [Permalink]
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| I wouldn't think using the bible as research is valid in this case. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 10:45:34 [Permalink]
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| I wrote a book and in it I found a copyright date of 7000BC(In Aztec years), Im still working on my second book "How I accidentally discovered my own divinity", the evidence is overwhelming. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 11:15:53 [Permalink]
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| Well hell why stop at 7000BC? Oh that's right, that's when you made the world. Damn evolutionists, got me all confused. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 11:29:31 [Permalink]
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| No thats just when I wrote the book, I created evolution to fool the unfaithful in 7012BC, just after I borrowed the world from Kolob. (They had extras) |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 11:33:17 [Permalink]
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| That was nice that they shared. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 14:13:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Hi, There is one very big problem with Atwill's theory. Most of the research I've done [including the World Book encyclopedia 2006, and several Bibles] state that St. Paul wrote his letters to the newly formed Christian churches from the late 40's AD to the 50's AD. If this is true than this totally destroys Atwill's theory that the so called made up Jesus story was written around the 76 AD. You don't constantly risk your life and make three voyages all over the Mediterranian for a character that hasn't been created yet. GK Paul
I don't know much about CM, but those letters considered by most historians to be the authentic letters of Paul do not have much to say about an historical Jesus. However, his statements fit in well with the "Christ as myth" theory, that he saw Christ as a spiritual being who acted in the spiritual realm, that only later did the spiritual Christ become associated with a real person, and the gospels were written to give him a history. Mark is often dated to 70 CE, Matthew and Luke to 110 CE or there-abouts. John sometime later. Earl Doherty in the Jesus Puzzle points out that the historical Jesus did not show up in Christian apologist writings until the mid second century, indicating that while the "historical Jesus" school of Christianity was around about the time of Mark (he dates Mark to around 85 CE), it was not a widely held belief and did not become widespread until the mid to late second century.
Interesting stuff. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 14:49:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
I wouldn't think using the bible as research is valid in this case.
Hi, when I said I used the bible as research, I meant the beginning introductions to each book of the bible. For example in the "Tyndale" King James Bible, published by "Tyndale House Publishers Inc" of Wheaton Illinois they say Paul's 1 Corinthians was written 56 AD. Atwill says the Gospels were written 71-79 AD (pg. 347) The World Book encyclopedia 2006 says Paul's travels were late 40's to the 50's. Either Atwill is wrong or the World Book and Tyndale is wrong. Atwill concedes Paul (the apostle) is a historical figure (pg 342). GK Paul |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 08/21/2006 15:13:26 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 15:58:05 [Permalink]
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| I have another problem with Atwill's theory. If your going to create a Son of God. Wouldn't it make more sense to have Him living at least a 100 years ago when no one can remember Him. And wouldn't it make more sense to have Him die in some small town. Atwill says the story of Jesus was invented as early as 71 AD (pg. 347). It is commonly accepted that Jesus died around 33 AD. 71 minus 33 equals 38 years. Wouldn't there be a lot people in Jerusalem in their late 50's and over saying hey wait a minute. I don't remember any guy named Jesus raising the dead and speaking to 5000 people on that mountain over there. I don't remember a guy going thru the city sitting on a donkey with hundreds of people putting palm leaves out before Him... It would be like some writer trying to convince the people of New York City that the Son of God lived in downtown New York in 1968, raised the dead, and was given the death penalty by the govenor of New York. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 08/21/2006 16:29:48 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 17:19:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Hi, There is one very big problem with Atwill's theory. Most of the research I've done [including the World Book encyclopedia 2006, and several Bibles] state that St. Paul wrote his letters to the newly formed Christian churches from the late 40's AD to the 50's AD. If this is true than this totally destroys Atwill's theory that the so called made up Jesus story was written around the 76 AD. You don't constantly risk your life and make three voyages all over the Mediterranian for a character that hasn't been created yet. GK Paul
Right, GK Paul, though it seems clear that something happened between Paul and Mark, as the Jesus portrayed by Paul differes from that of the Gospels. At least, this was my understanding. When I have time (*ahem*) I should look into early Christianity again. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 20:11:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Hi, There is one very big problem with Atwill's theory. Most of the research I've done [including the World Book encyclopedia 2006, and several Bibles] state that St. Paul wrote his letters to the newly formed Christian churches from the late 40's AD to the 50's AD. If this is true than this totally destroys Atwill's theory that the so called made up Jesus story was written around the 76 AD. You don't constantly risk your life and make three voyages all over the Mediterranian for a character that hasn't been created yet. GK Paul
Right, GK Paul, though it seems clear that something happened between Paul and Mark, as the Jesus portrayed by Paul differes from that of the Gospels. At least, this was my understanding. When I have time (*ahem*) I should look into early Christianity again.
Hello, Well when I read Paul's 1 Corinthians, Chapter 1 and 2 I see a man who talks very much about Jesus Christ: and a man who talks a lot about the resurrection of Christ and death on the cross. That to me is the main gospel message... Even Paul mentions in one verse, which I will look up when I get the chance, that if Christ did not rise from the dead than his faith is in vain. So Paul was "fully aware" of the ramifications of a non-risen, non-physical Christ, and yet he tirelessly and courageously devoted his life to the cause of this so called Jesus who Atwill said was the invention of some vain Jewish traitor, who created him 15 to 20 years after Paul's voyages. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 08/23/2006 18:06:51 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 20:23:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
So Paul was "fully aware" of the ramifications of a non-risen, non-physical Christ, and yet he tiredously and courageously devoted his life to the cause of this so called Jesus.
Actually, a close examination of Paul's writings do not suggest that he supposed Jesus' resurrection was physical in nature.
quote:
Nowhere in the accounts given in Acts are we actually told that Paul saw the risen Jesus. All he saw was a blinding light and a voice which his companions either did not hear or understand. The experience of Paul was nowhere near the tangible Jesus of the resurrected Jesus in the gospels. Paul's vision was a lot more uncertain than those described by the gospels.Yet we note that Paul in no way considered his vision as any different from those actually experienced by Peter and the other apostles.
and...
quote:
The precedent of the Pauline epistle strongly suggests that the appearances witnessed original followers of Jesus amount to nothing more than the type described by Paul, i.e. visions. We have absolutely no reason to believe that Paul understood Jesus' appearances to the apostles as anything different from his own experience.
Taken from Paul's Visions of the Resurrection on the website The Rejection of Pascal's Wager.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 22:56:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Wouldn't there be a lot people in Jerusalem in their late 50's
I don't think the average lifespan of that time would allow for many people to be in their mid 50's. Some, sure. The wealthy and lucky few.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Caesar's Messiah
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