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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2005 : 09:11:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
i think its simple, we don't have to go into all of the other evidence, but I think of it like this: we have something called radar, and when planes leave the airport, they are constantly being tracked by this. We also have something called NORAD, who's entire purpose is to stop terrorist attacks. They also are supposed to stop attacks like 9/11. But alas, even though we had all of that, no NORAD, even though those planes were off course for over 1 and 45 minutes. But other planes that have went off course and were intercepted by the military and NORAD within minutes, but not on 9/11. Why? Was radar not working that day? How about NORAD? I would love to here the excuses this time.
Nope. NORAD exists to detect inbound nuclear ICBM's and launch out own ICBM's.
Out of the literally hundreds of flight deviations each day which were uninvestigated and unintercepted, you're complaining about four. A number of years ago, an United Airlines jet landed at Council Bluffs, IA. The problem, their flight plan called for landing at Omaha, NE. It was not intercepted. When flights stray into military restricted airspace, they are usually intercepted and investigated. New York was not military restricted airspace.
Likewise, the scramble time of a flight of fighter aircraft is significantly longer than a few minutes. If there are any Air Force folks here, I'll hope you'll correct me if I misstate the time. I believe it takes 30 minutes to scramble two fighters for an intercept mission. Then you have to add in the flight time. Due to base closings, flight time is at least 15 minutes to NYC.
Well, to be fair, Hybrid did point out already that some of the planes were off course for a very long time. The last one (was it flight 901) was off course for almost 2hrs before the passengers brought it down (or was it the passengers?). BTW...in no way am I backing Hybrids theory. I think our military response to the situation was similar to our response to Katrina.....feeble and late. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 09:17:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by astropin
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
i think its simple, we don't have to go into all of the other evidence, but I think of it like this: we have something called radar, and when planes leave the airport, they are constantly being tracked by this. We also have something called NORAD, who's entire purpose is to stop terrorist attacks. They also are supposed to stop attacks like 9/11. But alas, even though we had all of that, no NORAD, even though those planes were off course for over 1 and 45 minutes. But other planes that have went off course and were intercepted by the military and NORAD within minutes, but not on 9/11. Why? Was radar not working that day? How about NORAD? I would love to here the excuses this time.
Nope. NORAD exists to detect inbound nuclear ICBM's and launch out own ICBM's.
Out of the literally hundreds of flight deviations each day which were uninvestigated and unintercepted, you're complaining about four. A number of years ago, an United Airlines jet landed at Council Bluffs, IA. The problem, their flight plan called for landing at Omaha, NE. It was not intercepted. When flights stray into military restricted airspace, they are usually intercepted and investigated. New York was not military restricted airspace.
Likewise, the scramble time of a flight of fighter aircraft is significantly longer than a few minutes. If there are any Air Force folks here, I'll hope you'll correct me if I misstate the time. I believe it takes 30 minutes to scramble two fighters for an intercept mission. Then you have to add in the flight time. Due to base closings, flight time is at least 15 minutes to NYC.
Well, to be fair, Hybrid did point out already that some of the planes were off course for a very long time. The last one (was it flight 901) was off course for almost 2hrs before the passengers brought it down (or was it the passengers?). BTW...in no way am I backing Hybrids theory. I think our military response to the situation was similar to our response to Katrina.....feeble and late.
All of these people dead, and you make excuses for them! Oh they are just slow, oh they are incompetent, if the cashier fucks up more than 20 dollars on the register at walmart, she gets fired. So you mean that the thousands of people dead, people you get that, gone! And you say, they are just slow incompetent, what the fuck. I can't believe I am talking to rational people. Man, i did not think that you guys could fall off like this, but that just plain arrogance, cowardice, and ignorance. Especially cowardice! |
| Edited by - HYBRID on 09/23/2005 09:19:50 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 09:34:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by astropin
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
i think its simple, we don't have to go into all of the other evidence, but I think of it like this: we have something called radar, and when planes leave the airport, they are constantly being tracked by this. We also have something called NORAD, who's entire purpose is to stop terrorist attacks. They also are supposed to stop attacks like 9/11. But alas, even though we had all of that, no NORAD, even though those planes were off course for over 1 and 45 minutes. But other planes that have went off course and were intercepted by the military and NORAD within minutes, but not on 9/11. Why? Was radar not working that day? How about NORAD? I would love to here the excuses this time.
Nope. NORAD exists to detect inbound nuclear ICBM's and launch out own ICBM's.
Out of the literally hundreds of flight deviations each day which were uninvestigated and unintercepted, you're complaining about four. A number of years ago, an United Airlines jet landed at Council Bluffs, IA. The problem, their flight plan called for landing at Omaha, NE. It was not intercepted. When flights stray into military restricted airspace, they are usually intercepted and investigated. New York was not military restricted airspace.
Likewise, the scramble time of a flight of fighter aircraft is significantly longer than a few minutes. If there are any Air Force folks here, I'll hope you'll correct me if I misstate the time. I believe it takes 30 minutes to scramble two fighters for an intercept mission. Then you have to add in the flight time. Due to base closings, flight time is at least 15 minutes to NYC.
Well, to be fair, Hybrid did point out already that some of the planes were off course for a very long time. The last one (was it flight 901) was off course for almost 2hrs before the passengers brought it down (or was it the passengers?). BTW...in no way am I backing Hybrids theory. I think our military response to the situation was similar to our response to Katrina.....feeble and late.
And at the time, the military was not in the habit of chasing down every commercial aircraft that went off course. There had never been a domestic shoot down of a US based commercial airliner by US forces. Authority for this was thought to reside with the President. Historically, terrorists only hijacked airliners to other places or just blew them up.
It was an inadequate response to the situation militarily, but not evidence of a staging by the US government. In one case, but not so for the others who had shorter flight times.
Of course, he decided to attack your question as well since he is the Sole Arbiter of Truth(tm) and is not required to list sources or provide evidence for his absurd conjecture. He need only pooh-pooh it and viola it is refuted. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 09:42:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
You say that like it had a purpose. I stand by what I said, FIRMLY. The way you came at me about the situation was outrageous.
Really? Outrageous? How so? Anyhow, my point was simply that if you're going to say something that goes against convention-- "Jews run the media" then ideally, you can assemble an argument. This way, we readers can look at your evidence, assess it, and then engage you in a discussion about the rightness or wrongness of your conclusions. You end up doing this anyway with the whole NORAD thing, so why not simply start off with that? |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 09:46:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
You say that like it had a purpose. I stand by what I said, FIRMLY. The way you came at me about the situation was outrageous.
Or perhaps you're talking about the mystery schools thing. I only bring that up because you've done nothing to show me more about these "schools" that date back to 3000 BC. I think it's funny that you can't even define what a "mystery school" is, nor can you provide evidence for what they are or how we can be sure they date to 3000 BC. And if you're going to buy into that with no evidence, then of course you're going to buy into some hackneyed song and dance about the government and the Sept. 11 terrorist activities. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 09:51:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
i think its simple, we don't have to go into all of the other evidence, but I think of it like this: we have something called radar, and when planes leave the airport, they are constantly being tracked by this. We also have something called NORAD, who's entire purpose is to stop terrorist attacks. They also are supposed to stop attacks like 9/11.
Uh, just so you know, the purpose of NORAD is not "to stop terrorist attacks." A VERY simple Google search (search for "NORAD" and then click on the, uh, first link) came up with this:quote:
Until the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, NORAD's focus was almost exclusively fixed on threats coming toward the Canadian and American borders, not terrorism in our domestic airspace. Because of that day, NORAD's focus has increased to include domestic airspace. NORAD's mission is truly global.
So, uh, no. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 09/23/2005 09:53:43 |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 09:52:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by astropin
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
i think its simple, we don't have to go into all of the other evidence, but I think of it like this: we have something called radar, and when planes leave the airport, they are constantly being tracked by this. We also have something called NORAD, who's entire purpose is to stop terrorist attacks. They also are supposed to stop attacks like 9/11. But alas, even though we had all of that, no NORAD, even though those planes were off course for over 1 and 45 minutes. But other planes that have went off course and were intercepted by the military and NORAD within minutes, but not on 9/11. Why? Was radar not working that day? How about NORAD? I would love to here the excuses this time.
Nope. NORAD exists to detect inbound nuclear ICBM's and launch out own ICBM's.
Out of the literally hundreds of flight deviations each day which were uninvestigated and unintercepted, you're complaining about four. A number of years ago, an United Airlines jet landed at Council Bluffs, IA. The problem, their flight plan called for landing at Omaha, NE. It was not intercepted. When flights stray into military restricted airspace, they are usually intercepted and investigated. New York was not military restricted airspace.
Likewise, the scramble time of a flight of fighter aircraft is significantly longer than a few minutes. If there are any Air Force folks here, I'll hope you'll correct me if I misstate the time. I believe it takes 30 minutes to scramble two fighters for an intercept mission. Then you have to add in the flight time. Due to base closings, flight time is at least 15 minutes to NYC.
Well, to be fair, Hybrid did point out already that some of the planes were off course for a very long time. The last one (was it flight 901) was off course for almost 2hrs before the passengers brought it down (or was it the passengers?). BTW...in no way am I backing Hybrids theory. I think our military response to the situation was similar to our response to Katrina.....feeble and late.
And at the time, the military was not in the habit of chasing down every commercial aircraft that went off course. There had never been a domestic shoot down of a US based commercial airliner by US forces. Authority for this was thought to reside with the President. Historically, terrorists only hijacked airliners to other places or just blew them up.
It was an inadequate response to the situation militarily, but not evidence of a staging by the US government. In one case, but not so for the others who had shorter flight times.
Of course, he decided to attack your question as well since he is the Sole Arbiter of Truth(tm) and is not required to list sources or provide evidence for his absurd conjecture. He need only pooh-pooh it and viola it is refuted.
Wait a minute, cause I really don't like your ass! What about after the 1st plane hit! Was that not reason enough to act. How about the fact that the clinton and bush administration protected bin laden and al queida, as in signed documents saying that people would arrested for trying to arrest them! FBI agents and other law enforcement agencies quit after 9/11 because they felt that our government protected them, when they could have stopped it.
I don't give a fuck what you say, there is no fucking way that the planes should have been off course that long. And I am talking not just about military radar, what about all of the other statesin between where the planes left and d.c.? All of that air space, and no one question a plane u turning and going 200 miles or more out of the direction. BULLSHIT!! BULLSHIT!! D.C. is supposed to be the most protected air space IN THE WORLD!
'Inadequate response by the military'dude, you sound like my mom! Man if I keep hearing the same old excuses. Trying to justify these fucked up things with oh, they don't know what they are doing, oh they are incompetent, well get sombody in there who IS competent! How the fuck did they get in there to begin with!! Get them THE FUCK OUT!! Who's going to have some balls to do or say something about this? How many have to die? Me, you, my mom, your mom, my kid your kids, anyone's kids, millions? This is a sad day indeed. |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 09:57:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
You say that like it had a purpose. I stand by what I said, FIRMLY. The way you came at me about the situation was outrageous.
Or perhaps you're talking about the mystery schools thing. I only bring that up because you've done nothing to show me more about these "schools" that date back to 3000 BC. I think it's funny that you can't even define what a "mystery school" is, nor can you provide evidence for what they are or how we can be sure they date to 3000 BC. And if you're going to buy into that with no evidence, then of course you're going to buy into some hackneyed song and dance about the government and the Sept. 11 terrorist activities.
Dude, you have no idea what you are talking about. You came at me with stupid ass questions so I ignored you. Yes mystery schools go back when I said they did jackass. I know what a mystery school is genius. This is how it is, I said I learned alot interesting info about mystery schools from school, you did not agree with the info and you wanted me to post ALL of my books, notes, or my professors name and number so you can look at this to determine its credibility. I will tell you like I told you then, if I have to post all of this, or give you my professor's number, you can kiss my ass! I am not about to give you this, If my word isn't good enough, fuck you! Quit talking to me its that simple! There is more evidence than you can wave a stick at boy! |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 10:00:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
You say that like it had a purpose. I stand by what I said, FIRMLY. The way you came at me about the situation was outrageous.
Or perhaps you're talking about the mystery schools thing. I only bring that up because you've done nothing to show me more about these "schools" that date back to 3000 BC. I think it's funny that you can't even define what a "mystery school" is, nor can you provide evidence for what they are or how we can be sure they date to 3000 BC. And if you're going to buy into that with no evidence, then of course you're going to buy into some hackneyed song and dance about the government and the Sept. 11 terrorist activities.
Who the fuck are you? No, better yet, who the fuck do you THINK you are? You are no better than me, no smarter than me, so wipe that fucking arrogant look off of your face! |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 10:00:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by astropin
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
i think its simple, we don't have to go into all of the other evidence, but I think of it like this: we have something called radar, and when planes leave the airport, they are constantly being tracked by this. We also have something called NORAD, who's entire purpose is to stop terrorist attacks. They also are supposed to stop attacks like 9/11. But alas, even though we had all of that, no NORAD, even though those planes were off course for over 1 and 45 minutes. But other planes that have went off course and were intercepted by the military and NORAD within minutes, but not on 9/11. Why? Was radar not working that day? How about NORAD? I would love to here the excuses this time.
Nope. NORAD exists to detect inbound nuclear ICBM's and launch out own ICBM's.
Out of the literally hundreds of flight deviations each day which were uninvestigated and unintercepted, you're complaining about four. A number of years ago, an United Airlines jet landed at Council Bluffs, IA. The problem, their flight plan called for landing at Omaha, NE. It was not intercepted. When flights stray into military restricted airspace, they are usually intercepted and investigated. New York was not military restricted airspace.
Likewise, the scramble time of a flight of fighter aircraft is significantly longer than a few minutes. If there are any Air Force folks here, I'll hope you'll correct me if I misstate the time. I believe it takes 30 minutes to scramble two fighters for an intercept mission. Then you have to add in the flight time. Due to base closings, flight time is at least 15 minutes to NYC.
Well, to be fair, Hybrid did point out already that some of the planes were off course for a very long time. The last one (was it flight 901) was off course for almost 2hrs before the passengers brought it down (or was it the passengers?). BTW...in no way am I backing Hybrids theory. I think our military response to the situation was similar to our response to Katrina.....feeble and late.
And at the time, the military was not in the habit of chasing down every commercial aircraft that went off course. There had never been a domestic shoot down of a US based commercial airliner by US forces. Authority for this was thought to reside with the President. Historically, terrorists only hijacked airliners to other places or just blew them up.
It was an inadequate response to the situation militarily, but not evidence of a staging by the US government. In one case, but not so for the others who had shorter flight times.
Of course, he decided to attack your question as well since he is the Sole Arbiter of Truth(tm) and is not required to list sources or provide evidence for his absurd conjecture. He need only pooh-pooh it and viola it is refuted.
Wait a minute, cause I really don't like your ass! What about after the 1st plane hit! Was that not reason enough to act. How about the fact that the clinton and bush administration protected bin laden and al queida, as in signed documents saying that people would arrested for trying to arrest them! FBI agents and other law enforcement agencies quit after 9/11 because they felt that our government protected them, when they could have stopped it.
I don't give a fuck what you say, there is no fucking way that the planes should have been off course that long. And I am talking not just about military radar, what about all of the other statesin between where the planes left and d.c.? All of that air space, and no one question a plane u turning and going 200 miles or more out of the direction. BULLSHIT!! BULLSHIT!! D.C. is supposed to be the most protected air space IN THE WORLD!
'Inadequate response by the military'dude, you sound like my mom! Man if I keep hearing the same old excuses. Trying to justify these fucked up things with oh, they don't know what they are doing, oh they are incompetent, well get sombody in there who IS competent! How the fuck did they get in there to begin with!! Get them THE FUCK OUT!! Who's going to have some balls to do or say something about this? How many have to die? Me, you, my mom, your mom, my kid your kids, anyone's kids, millions? This is a sad day indeed.
I don't give a rats ass if you like me or not. Provide proof or go infect someplace else. The name of the game round here is evidence. You have provided zero of that and only mounds of abuse and pooh-poohing. Again, I accept your concession of defeat evidenced by your complete lack of proof. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 10:04:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
You say that like it had a purpose. I stand by what I said, FIRMLY. The way you came at me about the situation was outrageous.
Or perhaps you're talking about the mystery schools thing. I only bring that up because you've done nothing to show me more about these "schools" that date back to 3000 BC. I think it's funny that you can't even define what a "mystery school" is, nor can you provide evidence for what they are or how we can be sure they date to 3000 BC. And if you're going to buy into that with no evidence, then of course you're going to buy into some hackneyed song and dance about the government and the Sept. 11 terrorist activities.
Dude, you have no idea what you are talking about. You came at me with stupid ass questions so I ignored you. Yes mystery schools go back when I said they did jackass. I know what a mystery school is genius. This is how it is, I said I learned alot interesting info about mystery schools from school, you did not agree with the info and you wanted me to post ALL of my books, notes, or my professors name and number so you can look at this to determine its credibility. I will tell you like I told you then, if I have to post all of this, or give you my professor's number, you can kiss my ass! I am not about to give you this, If my word isn't good enough, fuck you! Quit talking to me its that simple! There is more evidence than you can wave a stick at boy!
Neat. Well, I am pretty dumb and all, and know very little about things that happened in 3000 BC. Very little. And while I don't actually want your professor's number, or for you to post all of your books and notes, it would be nice to have something to look at, so I can indeed "determine its credibility." Because honestly-- why would I take your word at anything? Do you take mine? If I made a bold assertion that went against what you know (and seriously-- you sound like you know a lot), then would you want some references?
And why are you so harsh? Jackass? Fuck you? Fuck this? You should relax. Maybe have a beer or something. It might calm you down a bit. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 09/23/2005 10:06:05 |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 10:09:36 [Permalink]
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I presented evidence you stupid, scary little shit! Its called thinking about it, its called common sense, its called thinking for yourself, its called being an individual! http://www.archive.org/details/911theRoadtoTyranny http://www.netctr.com/media.html 'masters of terror'
I dare you to watch these all of the way through, and tell me there is no evidence here!! This is only a LITTLE bit of info on the subject. YOu motherfuckers are in serious denial! Its down right scary!! You motherfuckers would not last one day in my old neighborhoods. You would have gotten all of your shit taken from you until you would have been running around but ass naked, crying. Go ahead watch them, and I bet, that you guys won't even address 90% of it. You will just find one thing and say, hey that's not true, and just ignore all the rest. You won't do any investigations, and if you do find one site that refuted that ONE piece of info, it will probably be a government sponsored site, and the refuttal will be a half of a page with a crappy ass expalnation, and you lames believe that shit!! |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 10:12:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
You say that like it had a purpose. I stand by what I said, FIRMLY. The way you came at me about the situation was outrageous.
Or perhaps you're talking about the mystery schools thing. I only bring that up because you've done nothing to show me more about these "schools" that date back to 3000 BC. I think it's funny that you can't even define what a "mystery school" is, nor can you provide evidence for what they are or how we can be sure they date to 3000 BC. And if you're going to buy into that with no evidence, then of course you're going to buy into some hackneyed song and dance about the government and the Sept. 11 terrorist activities.
Dude, you have no idea what you are talking about. You came at me with stupid ass questions so I ignored you. Yes mystery schools go back when I said they did jackass. I know what a mystery school is genius. This is how it is, I said I learned alot interesting info about mystery schools from school, you did not agree with the info and you wanted me to post ALL of my books, notes, or my professors name and number so you can look at this to determine its credibility. I will tell you like I told you then, if I have to post all of this, or give you my professor's number, you can kiss my ass! I am not about to give you this, If my word isn't good enough, fuck you! Quit talking to me its that simple! There is more evidence than you can wave a stick at boy!
Neat. Well, I am pretty dumb and all, and know very little about things that happened in 3000 BC. Very little. And while I don't actually want your professor's number, or for you to post all of your books and notes, it would be nice to have something to look at, so I can indeed "determine its credibility." Because honestly-- why would I take your word at anything? Do you take mine? If I made a bold assertion that went against what you know (and seriously-- you sound like you know a lot), then would you want some references?
And why are you so harsh? Jackass? Fuck you? Fuck this? You should relax. Maybe have a beer or something. It might calm you down a bit.
What the fuck makes it bold? This is the shit I am talking about!! You coming at me all wrong dude!! What, because you are a "cuneiformist" you know everything? Do you know how much info is in the world that you don't know?! That, is arrogance in itself!! No, I am not calming down, that is part of the problem!! |
| Edited by - HYBRID on 09/23/2005 10:13:12 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 10:15:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
What the fuck makes it bold? This is the shit I am talking about!! You coming at me all wrong dude!! What, because you are a "cuneiformist" you know everything? Do you know how much info is in the world that you don't know?! That, is arrogance in itself!! No, I am not calming down, that is part of the problem!!
OK!! Don't fucking calm down!!! Yell!!! Scream!!!! Demand that I take your word for it!!! About mystery schools! About 911!!! Aliens! Kennedy!!!! All of it!!!!!!! I'm going to buy into all of it without question because YOU tell me to!!!!!!!!!!!! Fuck fuck fuck!!!!!
Cool. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 10:16:47 [Permalink]
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It is clear to me that HYBRID has come back to do nothing but claim moral and intellectual superiority, and bash those who don't think precisely as he does.
And so, because the Skeptic Friends Network does not exist so that people can have a soapbox from which to demostrate their personality flaws, HYBRID now has an official warning from me to cease the abusive language.
Everyone else should follow suit, as is only fair. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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