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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2006 : 23:53:59 [Permalink]
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Meh, nothin' new. But it's always good to keep this sort of criticism and analysis up. Religious fundamentalists certainly keep bringing up their same old arguments even after they were debunked eons ago.
I think another reason that Creationists fear evolution so much is because they have historically digged themselves a deep hole. And when I say historically, I mean primarily stuff from less than a hundred years ago. Sure the Catholic Church opposed Darwin's ideas when they came out, but the Church quieted down once the theory gained acceptance from the scientific community, and the evidence started piling up.
But American Evangelicals, with much less dignity and education as Catholic authorities, took a totally different approach as evolution entered the public school science classes. They frothed at the mouth and developed highly simplistic rhetoric to convince themselves and many others that the theory of evolution has an atheistic philosophical consequence. Sure, many scientists and some laymen were turning atheist or agnostic due to study of evolution, but that consequence is not a necessary assumption. And people became atheists before evolution (and even before Christianity, for that matter) and plenty who are convinced by evolution do not turn atheist.
But anyway, by perpetuating the idea that "if evolution is true, then atheism is correct", Evangelicals have dug a very deep hole indeed. They've probably ended up converting a few people to atheism. Anyone who buys that line and is subsequently convinced by the evidence for evolution would convert to atheism. I've met lots of atheists who say that had the theory of evolution been around for the founding fathers, all those deists would have been atheists.
But is that true? Does evolution prove God's nonexistence? Of course not. Especially because it says nothing about the origin of the universe or even the origin of life (as so many Creationists assume and espouse), but also because, even if we did have all the naturalistic answers, God cannot be studied by science because God is by definition, not a natural phenomenon.
So anyway, maybe Creationists are actually helping spread atheism. I don't necessarily think the world be a much better place if everyone was an atheist, but I'm sure it would be a better place if there were no fundamentalists. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/29/2006 23:56:32 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/30/2006 : 07:09:28 [Permalink]
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I think that creationists fear evolution because they think it undermines the authority of the church and by extension, their own. I further think that, in part at least, they are correct.
I am reminded of Roy's Rock and the pitiful wails of devout agony that accompanied it as it was hauled away to a warehouse. At the same time, I well recall the thousands of irreligious sarcasms that floated around at the time, not the least of them my own. That had nothing to do with evolution, but it did show a certain, fairly widespread, lack of respect.
I think that evolution is used as a scapegoat as much anything else. It's an easy target to see, if not so easy to score on, so it is shot at constantly. Meanwhile, the real problems the church(s) have -- pedophile priests and avaricious preachers, charlatans and outright lunatics, and others even worse -- go blithely ignored when they could be dealt with to advantage and a restoration of some credibility.
Just a few thoughts -- say, NASCAR is running Talledega today! Let's skip church, buy a case o' beer and some eats, and watch the race over at my place. Fuckin' preacher ain't gonna say nothin we ain't heard before, no-ways.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2006 : 07:19:18 [Permalink]
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I agree. Evolution is an easy target because it is scientific and not easily understood by "common sense", and therefore harder to understand for most people (especially given the education system in America). The creationists know this and exploit this with no shame, and apparently no regard for their own tenets against lying. They will do anything to keep their power (disguised as doing god's work).
I agree with Marf that the fundamentalist agenda helps push some people "away from the light". I know that when I was a "holy roller" many, many moons ago, the combination of the sickening morality of the fundamentalist, the hypocrisy of both nationally known (Jim Baker, for example) and my personal "friends" at the time, and my growing knowledge of scientific and other philosophic ideas (thanks to going to a secular private high school and liberal arts colleges), help liberate me from the far right and send me down to road to where I am now. The Theory of Evolution did not make me an atheist, but it did help show that the literal interpretations of the fundamentalist religious were completely ludicrous. It help cause me to question what I beleived and what I was being told. What a terrible thing!
Also, the infield of Talledega where all the RVs are, which I have been to once (just to say I've been), is the furtherest thing from a "family atmosphere" as you could possibly imagine. Talk about sub-cultures....sheesh!  |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 04/30/2006 07:21:30 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 04/30/2006 : 08:26:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Meh, nothin' new. But it's always good to keep this sort of criticism and analysis up.
Indeed, the article was first posted here over four years ago. But, since it was #3 on the list of most-viewed articles since March 1st, it's one of the first ones to get a comment thread in this new folder. Go figure. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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absolutesexist
New Member
2 Posts |
 Posted - 05/29/2006 : 23:01:03 [Permalink]
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It's sad that God should be doubted by those that He made.
Skepticism is a sad form of self-worship.
Atheist beliefs had better be correct when compared to Christians.
If Christians are wrong, when they die, their consciousness will go where atheists think they will go........nowhere?
If Atheists are wrong, when they die they will go to Hell, but the Christian will go to Heaven. Option 2 is a much better deal, isn't it?
If God is real, does he need skeptics to tell him what is real or fair?
Relativism can be fatal. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2006 : 23:20:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by absolutesexist
It's sad that God should be doubted by those that He made.
Skepticism is a sad form of self-worship.
Atheist beliefs had better be correct when compared to Christians.
If Christians are wrong, when they die, their consciousness will go where atheists think they will go........nowhere?
If Atheists are wrong, when they die they will go to Hell, but the Christian will go to Heaven. Option 2 is a much better deal, isn't it?
If God is real, does he need skeptics to tell him what is real or fair?
Relativism can be fatal.
Skepticism of which god? Because it seems silly to argue for the Judeo-Christian god's desires when there isn't evidence for any particular god existing. I mean, who's to say that a god--if one existed--even wants blind devotion? Maybe that pisses him off. And even if it doesn't, what if Yahweh is a false god? Then Christians have been worshipping a golden cow the entire time. Zeus could be pretty pissed at those who devoted their lives to a fake god.
Seriously, next time, maybe you should think about how idiotic the apolegetics you've been taught really are before you try to vomit them into a forum filled with people who've given the topic of religion more consideration then you ever will.
quote:
If God is real, does he need skeptics to tell him what is real or fair?
If god were real, would he need mortal apologists? Yeah, probably not, huh?
And welcome to the SFN.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 05/29/2006 23:26:09 |
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absolutesexist
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2006 : 23:32:49 [Permalink]
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| I hear by your vehement dislike of the post, you reject the possibility that you may need to consider that you do not have all the relevent facts. I don't care if you call me names, but you are not even aware of weather or not Zeus exists. If you can't get that figured out, then you will not be interested in if there really is a creator God, or an Evil devil the destroyer. If you are listening to the Evil, how can you hear the good? If you want truth, look for the motives. If you want death, believe nothing, be a skeptic. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2006 : 00:00:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by absolutesexist
... but you are not even aware of weather or not Zeus exists.
Neither are you. That was the point.
quote:
If you can't get that figured out, then you will not be interested in if there really is a creator God, or an Evil devil the destroyer.
Oh, I'm interested. Do you have any proof to this effect? Or just more BS apologetics?
quote:
If you are listening to the Evil, how can you hear the good? If you want truth, look for the motives. If you want death, believe nothing, be a skeptic.
And if you want to settle for unfounded conjecture, be a theist.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 05/30/2006 00:01:14 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2006 : 01:06:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by absolutesexist
It's sad that God should be doubted by those that He made.
Yea, I'll bet Odin is pretty pissed right now...
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2006 : 03:28:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by absolutesexist
It's sad that God should be doubted by those that He made.
Why would that be sad? Seriously, let's assume God is real for a moment. Wouldn't He be more sad to see you worshipping some false god than to see atheists worshipping no god? Oh, but of course you worship the one true God of all possible gods.
quote:
Skepticism is a sad form of self-worship.
No, that'd be egoism you're thinking of. This is a really insulting misconception you have.quote:
Atheist beliefs had better be correct when compared to Christians.
If Christians are wrong, when they die, their consciousness will go where atheists think they will go........nowhere?
Not if the atheists are also wrong.quote:
If Atheists are wrong, when they die they will go to Hell, but the Christian will go to Heaven. Option 2 is a much better deal, isn't it?
Not if the Christians are also wrong.
quote:
If God is real, does he need skeptics to tell him what is real or fair?
Nope, if He is real He should be telling us what is real or fair. But He doesn't so He isn't.
quote:
Relativism can be fatal.
So can unfounded beliefs. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2006 : 04:53:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
quote:
Originally posted by absolutesexist
Atheist beliefs had better be correct when compared to Christians. If Christians are wrong, when they die, their consciousness will go where atheists think they will go........nowhere?
Not if the atheists are also wrong.
quote:
If Atheists are wrong, when they die they will go to Hell, but the Christian will go to Heaven. Option 2 is a much better deal, isn't it?
Not if the Christians are also wrong.
absolutesexist didn't waste any time trotting the least compelling and most easily refuted argument for belief in his God.  |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend
313 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2006 : 05:06:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by absolutesexist
Atheist beliefs had better be correct when compared to Christians.
If Christians are wrong, when they die, their consciousness will go where atheists think they will go........nowhere?
If Atheists are wrong, when they die they will go to Hell, but the Christian will go to Heaven. Option 2 is a much better deal, isn't it?
So the only reason you are Christian is "just in case". Christianity is just about hedging bets to you?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2006 : 05:47:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by absolutesexist
It's sad that God should be doubted by those that He made.
Skepticism is a sad form of self-worship.
Atheist beliefs had better be correct when compared to Christians.
If Christians are wrong, when they die, their consciousness will go where atheists think they will go........nowhere?
If Atheists are wrong, when they die they will go to Hell, but the Christian will go to Heaven. Option 2 is a much better deal, isn't it?
If God is real, does he need skeptics to tell him what is real or fair?
Relativism can be fatal.
Hi absolutesexist, and welcome to SFN!
Pascal's Wager has been seen and refuted many times on these boards and elsewhere. I really don't understand why it keeps showing up.
Briefly: if I, an atheist, were to worship, would God not know that I was merely hedging my bets, rather than being at all sincere? And if God did not realize that, would he not be a lot less than all-powerful and by extension much less worthy of worship?
Further, if God does not exist, would I not be wasting a lot of time pursuing him, not to mention donations to the collection plate, and so forth?
Open the link for a better discussion of The Gambit.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2006 : 09:02:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by absolutesexist
It's sad that God should be doubted by those that He made.
Skepticism is a sad form of self-worship.
Skepticism, by way of critical thinking, is nothing more than a set of tools for sorting out the value of ideas and claims. It is not about proving that atheism is correct or that God doesn't exist. We evaluate each claim separately, using tools similar and sometimes the same as the scientific method to assign a value to a claim. Sometimes a claim is simply wrong and winds up being debunked. Sometimes, because of a lack of evidence to do a complete evaluation, we remain doubtful of the claim. (The latter is often the case with supernatural claims that postulate realms that are outside of our ability to fully evaluate, given that we, and everything we can test for, exists in the natural world and is in a realm that can be falsified.) A lack of evidence of realms outside of the one we live in may indeed give us reason to doubt a claim. But it would be a gross misunderstanding of skepticism to say that we are out to prove the lack of the existence of those things that simply can't be tested for.
There are plenty of those who have some sort of God belief (including Christians) who are also skeptics. They understand that their faith is their faith and is outside of scientific verification.
Calling skepticism a “sad form of self-worship” is, unfortunately, your way of telling us that you have absolutely no idea of what skepticism is…
I suggest that before you make any more silly statements, you read the articles in our About Skepticism area.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2006 : 10:38:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by absolutesexist
It's sad that God should be doubted by those that He made.
Skepticism is a sad form of self-worship.
Atheist beliefs had better be correct when compared to Christians.
Only Christians? How about Muslims? Hindus? Wiccans?
quote:
If Christians are wrong, when they die, their consciousness will go where atheists think they will go........nowhere?
If Atheists are wrong, when they die they will go to Hell, but the Christian will go to Heaven. Option 2 is a much better deal, isn't it?
And if Allah is real, aren't Christians by the same extension in a great deal of trouble? Wouldn't it be best to practice both? But why stop there, bend your knee to Ra, Isis, Astarte, Diana, Freyja, The Njorns, Kali, Mithra, and the many other names called upon in religious worship.
We are talking about a restatement of Pascal's wager, after all.
quote:
If God is real, does he need skeptics to tell him what is real or fair?
Relativism can be fatal.
Skeptics don't talk to God about things. They analyze and talk to other humans about what sections of dogma are physically realistic or textually consistent. The article is a piece on the humans who are Creationsts, not any diety.
Ignoring physics is a lot more immediately fatal. Relativism in the context you use it cannot be fatal as you are describing events which you conjecture will happen post death. Did you mean something else? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Why Do Creationists Fear Evolution?
