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trogdor
Skeptic Friend
198 Posts |
 Posted - 05/06/2006 : 15:48:50
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Okay, After a kind reminder from Bill I will impart unto you the great gift of knowledge!
First check out this article:
genesis
The first line explains a lot:
quote:
Some fields of science are so wide open, such virgin swamps of unexplored territory, that it takes some radically divergent approaches to make any headway. There will always be opinionated, strong-minded investigators who charge in deeply and narrowly committed to their pet theories, and there will also be others who consolidate information and try to synthesize the variety of approaches taken. There are dead ends and areas of solid progress, and there is much flailing about until the promising leads are discovered
Origins of life research is such an unsettled frontier. I wouldn't want to work there, but the uncertainty and the confusion and the various small victories and the romance of the work do make for a very good story. And now you can read that story in Robert Hazen's Gen•e•sis: The Scientific Quest for Life's Origins
You seem to be interested in this. If you want to learn more about it you can get the book. Or if you just talk about it to be smug, well, it's a free country.
Some ideas addressed in that article:
quote:
Life began with metabolism, and genetic molecules were incorporated later. Wächtershäuser is a key figure here, and I'd also mention Stu Kauffman. The idea is that you could have sloppy replication (actually, simple growth) of a chemical environment, and informational macromolecules would be a later refinement that made the process more robust and reliable.
Life began with self-replicating genetic molecules, and metabolism was incorporated later. This idea hypothesizes that the first molecules of life were complex polymers that were launched into cycles of Darwinian competition, and the elaborations of metabolism were later features that accumulated, conferring greater fitness on the possessors.
Life began as a cooperative chemical phenomenon arising between metabolism and genetics. This is a kind of best of both worlds compromise, but hey, why not? It's a big planet, and one of the things that you learn in this book is that there are many ways that complex molecules are generated spontaneously. I have no problem with the idea that lots of chemical reactions were taking many different directions, and that the origin of life was a "you got chocolate in my peanut butter/you got peanut butter in my chocolate" moment.
Another Article you should read is here:
talk origins
It references most of the articles there that deal with it.
I can't summarize all of them, but if you read them, especially the first one you should learn a little bit.
quote:
Introduction
Every so often, someone comes up with the statement "the formation of any enzyme by chance is nearly impossible, therefore abiogenesis is impossible". Often they cite an impressive looking calculation from the astrophysicist Fred Hoyle, or trot out something called "Borel's Law" to prove that life is statistically impossible. These people, including Fred, have committed one or more of the following errors.
Problems with the creationists' "it's so improbable" calculations
1) They calculate the probability of the formation of a "modern" protein, or even a complete bacterium with all "modern" proteins, by random
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all eyes were on Ford Prefect. some of them were on stalks.
-Douglas Adams |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2006 : 16:28:24 [Permalink]
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Interesting, Trog. I find myself reminded of the 1953 experiments of Stanley Miller and Harold Urey, and the ongoing effects of them today.
"The Miller-Urey experiment attempts to recreate the chemical conditions of the primitive Earth in the laboratory, and synthesized some of the building blocks of life."
I think it looks like a Dalek in a strait jacket.... Never the less: quote:
The Miller-Urey experiment (or Urey-Miller experiment) was an experiment that simulated hypothetical conditions present on the early Earth and tested for the occurrence of chemical evolution (the Oparin and Haldane hypothesis stated that conditions on the primitive Earth favored chemical reactions that synthesized organic compounds from inorganic precursors; the Miller-Urey tested this hypothesis). The experiment is considered to be the classic experiment on the origin of life. It was conducted in 1953 by Stanley L. Miller and Harold C. Urey at the University of Chicago.
Miller-Urey did not produce abiogenesis, but the experiment was a success in that it has been the inspiration for much more work on the subject.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2006 : 17:42:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I think it looks like a Dalek in a strait jacket....
Man, I love the Daleks!
Seek! Locate! EXTERMINATE!
[/hijack] |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2006 : 18:20:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I think it looks like a Dalek in a strait jacket....
Man, I love the Daleks!
Seek! Locate! EXTERMINATE!
[/hijack]
Daleks are cool.... And they get all the hot chicks!
[Sorry, filthy, but that image is a bit much - Dave W.]
Sorry 'bout that, 'Mooner, but I've been waiting for years for an excuse to put that one up! Many thanks to Cuneiformist.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2006 : 18:57:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
[Sorry, filthy, but that image is a bit much - Dave W.]
Heh, kind'a thought it might be. 
The chick is, I think, one of John Pertwee's sidekicks back when he played the Doctor.
Ok, back to topic....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2006 : 03:27:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Heh, kind'a thought it might be.
At least I left a link. 
And I appreciate it. Other boards would have at least suspended me..... Which is why this one is among the few worth hanging at.  And why I seldom visit other boards beyond a bit of casual lurking.
I must admit that due to one thing and another, I'm not up on the latest abiogenesis research. Is there any fresh data out there?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2006 : 06:39:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
An article I read in a journal lent to me by my geology professor talked about crystals in the aiding of abiogenesis. Crystals, because they have a regular atomic structure, can be used as a catalyst to gather certain types of atoms. Doing so greatly increasing the chance for abiogenesis to occur.
Unfortunately, I no longer have the article, so I can't reference or quote it.
Didn't Dawkins talk about this in Blind Watchmaker? Not in the context of 'this is how life on earth as we know it came about' but rather, 'this is possible, so claims that aboigenesis is impossible should be reconsidered' or something... |
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