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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/11/2006 : 12:20:53
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‘Tis true, my friends, ‘tis true; they loathe, despise, and outright hate that wretched Flood bilge with a malevolence they usually reserve for Democrats, Communists, atheists, sex because it feels good, anyone named Clinton, and those who accept the Theory of Evolution, whatever their names might be.
Of course, you'll never get the first one of ‘em to admit that....
It is impossible to defend the Flood Story as anything other than a myth. All one needs to do is study the geologic record to cast fatal doubt upon it. Such an event in the so-recent past would have left a huge and unmistakable imprint upon the world -- indeed, it would show up all over the world, explainable by no other, process -- but no such imprint exists. We'll get into that a little farther along.
Let us begin with simple logistics. The Ark is alleged to have been somewhere between four and six hundred feet long, depending upon which version of the cubit one might prefer (there were several in use at the time, varying widely in dimension). A vessel such as the one described is not all that easily built. It would require saw pits, smithies, foundries, rope-walks, and all of the of the facilities found in an early shipyard. It would have required a master shipwright and a construction crew with experience. And it would require a vast amount of timber to be harvested and processed in a land not noted for it's forests. And lest we forget, the days of the Ark had little more than Bronze Age technology.
The largest wooden clipper ship ever built is said to have been the Great Republic. She was somewhere, depending upon whose account you read, between 320 and 350 feet long with quite a wide beam to increase cargo space. She was relatively slow and in spite of oak construction, iron bracing and multiple keelsons, her hull hogged and sagged enough to render her a constant leaker. She was only moderately successful and ultimately was lost in a tropical storm as water came in from her sprung hull strakes. There was some 15 feet of water in her holds when her crew abandoned her.
This ship was built by Donald McKay, one of the world's premier shipbuilders, on speculation. She was one of the few mistakes he ever made. While she wasn't a complete and utter failure, she was never the hoped-for, roaring success envisioned by McKay. Wood is simply not strong enough for a ship of her dimensions, even with a hull design and conformation close to ideal for taking heavy weather. What then of the Ark, with it's barge's hull suitable only for rivers, coastal and inland waters, and, by design I ask you to believe, with no steerage?
Any deckape worth his salt & biscuit can tell you precisely ‘what then:' Broach, hog, sag, twist, founder and break up with loss of all hands and cargo in the first hour afloat in the maelstrom!
Was landlubber Noah a superior shipwright to McKay?
Because, you see, the ocean is never still, never at rest. Even with a glass-calm surface, currents and eddies, oft at odds with each other, move huge amounts of water under that surface. Ships, even the largest of them, roll and toss a bit under any conditions. In the conditions that would have been produced by the Flood, the waters would be anything but calm; indeed, due to severely disrupted weather patterns, it could conceivably be one category 5 howler after another, or worse, and a great many modern ships could not survive that for a solid, unbroken year. Certainly their crews could not. After the first couple of weeks, it would be rather like an endless boxing match with Muhammad Ali back in the days when he was known as “The Louisville Lip.” Any livestock aboard would fare even worse than the crew.
And speaking of the livestock.... In my experi
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Edited by - filthy on 05/14/2006 02:46:20
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 05/11/2006 : 13:42:23 [Permalink]
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Excellent, filthy!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2006 : 14:12:23 [Permalink]
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| Very nice filthy, but are you trying to start a fight or stop one from starting? |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2006 : 15:35:30 [Permalink]
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Thanks... It's been a long time since we've done the Flood. I've had the Leipzig up a couple of times -- I think I laid it on verlch sometime back. It was fun to drag it out again.
And yes, I'm hoping to start a fight, if someone will try and refute Leipzig. I don't think it can be done.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2006 : 15:57:05 [Permalink]
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Goddidit.
Really, that's all someone has to say. It doesn't really matter how much logic or evidence you lay out (and nice job, btw!).
Those 3 little words can absolve anything and everything.
But it is nice to see 'em squirm. I love how they will come up with all kinds of crap that isn't written in the bible, but then turn right around and accuse a skeptic of twisting interpretation when the infidel starts quoting scripture back at 'em. Punk-ass bitches. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2006 : 17:24:59 [Permalink]
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| If I remember correctly, Umerto Eco's The Island of the Day Before had the Flood waters stored in the time warp which exists at the International Date Line. How's that for refuting Leipzig? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2006 : 17:48:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Further, Mount Everest extends through 2/3 of the Earth's atmosphere. Since two forms of matter can't occupy the same space, we have an additional problem with the atmosphere. Its current boundary marks the point at which gasses of the atmosphere can escape the Earth's gravitational field. Even allowing for partial dissolving of the atmosphere into our huge ocean, we'd lose the vast majority of our atmosphere as it is raised some 5.155 km higher by the rising flood waters; and it boils off into space.
Yet, we still have a quite thick and nicely breathable atmosphere.
Yes, but god obviously used an input of energy to split the flood-water into oxygen and hydrogen. The hydrogen escaped the atmosphere leaving Earth with an atmosphere full of oxygen. This air would not have been putrid (sorry Filthy) and would also allow Noah to live for a full 900 years (no longer will we need the water canopy to explain how so much oxygen could have been present in the atmosphere). Occams razor tells us that this is the simplest solution for explaining the flood.
Damn, I wish I was YEC. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2006 : 17:59:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
If I remember correctly, Umerto Eco's The Island of the Day Before had the Flood waters stored in the time warp which exists at the International Date Line. How's that for refuting Leipzig?
Nope. As much as I admire Eco, this only solves the scource of the water (otherwise undocumented, I might add). It fails to deal with the heat and the atmosphere problems. 
It's a toughy, ain't it? 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2006 : 18:00:28 [Permalink]
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That's really quite excellent filthy! Thanks for the info.
This has nothing to do with Noah's Ark but several scientists have supported the theory that the source of the Biblical legend of the flood was an actual ancient large (but not worldwide) flood that occurred when a natural dam broke about 7000 years ago, near the area that is now modern Istanbul, resulting in much of what we call today the Black Sea.
A 1999 article about Columbia University geologists William Ryan and Walter Pitman:
http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news165.htm
This was a PBS show:
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1207/features/noah.htm
Of course, the Fundies totally hate this too because the evidence contradicts their literal interpretation of the rewritten King James Bible. Since there is a lot of stuff in the Bible that filtered in from many earlier sources including ancient Greece and the whole Middle East, it seems not unreasonable that the flood story originated when a large region was flooded. To the ancient population back then, that was "the world."
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2006 : 18:37:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Nope. As much as I admire Eco, this only solves the scource of the water (otherwise undocumented, I might add). It fails to deal with the heat and the atmosphere problems.
It's a toughy, ain't it?
Not at all. The heat remains trapped in the time warp with the waters, to be let loose upon the Earth when God decides it's time to renege on the deal he made with Noah.
Seriously, the atmosphere bit is where Leipzig is all wrong. 5.155 km is about 1/20th of the way to what we call "space." The updrafts in many thunderstorms go up to 10-16 km, but the atmosphere doesn't just drift off into space from there. The idea that raising the atmosphere 5 km would allow a significant amount of it to leave Earth appears to be ridiculous.
Even more so, since an increase of 5.155 km would mean a drop in the force of gravity of just about 0.16% by my calculations, while the mass of all the extra water would increase the force of gravity by about 0.1%, to at least partially compensate.
That part of Leipzig's argument should be eliminated due to poor reasoning and/or fact-checking. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2006 : 18:59:19 [Permalink]
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| It's time to gather up a few of Filthy's posts and publish them as articles... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2006 : 19:06:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
‘Tis true, my friends, ‘tis true; they loathe, despise, and outright hate that wretched Flood bilge with a malevolence they usually reserve for Democrats, Communists, atheists, sex because it feels good, anyone named Clinton, and those who accept the Theory of Evolution, whatever their names might be.
Of course, you'll never get the first one of ‘em to admit that....
Rather then waste the 30 minutes of my life that I would never get back to address each assertion point by point I will just address the report as a whole. The report begins with an invalid assumption. Never mind the fact that the author could never possible know what the exact conditions were for all relevant factors of the time. The piece attempts to dismiss the account looking at the events, and analyzing them, with his preconceived belief that Yahweh is not the creator of the entire cosmos and all of the reality that we see before us. With his basket of assumptions in hand he goes about attempting to discredit the account in a world where his beliefs dictate that Yahweh does not exist, let alone created the entire cosmos and is involved to the point that the numbers of hairs on each of our heads, or lack there of, has been accounted for. To dismiss the account using an imaginary reality, where Yahweh is refused to be accounted for, is a strawman fallacy that the creator of loves to huff and puff and… Well you know the rest. To account for reality with Noah one must also account for the same reality where Yahweh is the creator of Noah. To assert that Yahweh, who created the entire cosmos, could not cause a flood on one tiny speck of his entire creation, and for him to be unable to decide who and what lives through said flood, as the creator of all things that exist, is absurd on so many levels. A much simpler analogy would be to assert that the most prestigious architect in the world would, somehow, fail to be able to come up with a set of plans for your Erector Set or Tinker Toys. I can assure you that a flood, even on a global scale, is not a problem for the creator of the cosmos…
I've got a request for the next Filthy report. I would like to hear the latest buzz, in the skeptic, agnostic, atheistic, camp on abiogenesis hypothesis and/or theory please.
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Goddidit.
Really, that's all someone has to say.
As a theist what would you expect me to say, that God is not responsable for the creation and reality that we see befor us? That is theism, God did it. Of course the naturalist will say "naturalselectionandrandommutationsdidit". What else would we expect them to say?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 05/11/2006 19:24:22 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2006 : 19:33:41 [Permalink]
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The only difference is that you have zero, nada, zilch, evidence other than your book. That is the truth. Period. No amouth of blathering will change that. No amount of twisting the words in your book will expose any physical evidence. You have nothing, and you will always have nothing. That is why you have to say, by default, "Goddidit".
Of course your god could do it. Why do you have to state the obvious? But without leaving any trace other than what was written in that book? Why the cover up? The prankster god, or just testing faith?
Your version of religion is rather pathetic. Other religions don't have to have crutches like this. Why does yours? Is it that intellectually weak?
Oh, and in this case the "naturalist" would not say what you stated - you are confusing your twisted view of evolution with the subject at hand. A "naturalist" says that it is not possible within the realm of known physical laws. This does not mean that a god couldn't do it. It just means that we have no evidence for it. I guess you can't take your blinders off to see that.
BTW, we now know, since you never ever admit it, that you are just a plain jane, bible thumpin', run-of-the-mill fundie christian. 'Bought time you fessed up, even if it was involuntary. We still wonder why you hid it all this time.
You have any college degrees from any degree mills? Just curious, since that seems to follow the intellectually dishonest. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 05/11/2006 19:36:14 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2006 : 20:16:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
I can assure you that a flood, even on a global scale, is not a problem for the creator of the cosmos…
Okay, you've simply missed the point of the post, and instead substituted your own strawman argument. Bravo.quote:
I've got a request for the next Filthy report. I would like to hear the latest buzz, in the skeptic, agnostic, atheistic, camp on abiogenesis hypothesis and/or theory please.
Did you miss trogdor's post?quote:
As a theist what would you expect me to say, that God is not responsable for the creation and reality that we see befor us? That is theism, God did it.
No, your particular brand of theism demands that the Flood was an actual event. Other theists disagree with you.quote:
Of course the naturalist will say "naturalselectionandrandommutationsdidit". What else would we expect them to say?
Any "naturalist" who says such a thing is just as ignorant of evolution as you are, Bill. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2006 : 23:00:10 [Permalink]
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Good job Filthy - we knew it was ludicrous, we just didn't know how ludicrous.
It is interesting that god would choose such an awkward way of destroying nearly all of humanity while saving just enough to start over. It would make a lot more sense to wipe out humanity with a virus spread by birds. Or send earth off into interstellar space and replace it. But of course none of these methods would have fit in with what was known to the people who wrote the old testament - they had to go with what they knew so they made up a story about a flood and a boat. It probably seemed semi-plausible to them because they did not know of many species of animals and they were functionally innumerate so they couldn't do the math to find out that it wouldn't work. Either that or not only is Yaweh a tryanical jerk, but a dufus as well.
The YECs have to cling to the flood because they need to explain all the sedimentary rock. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2006 : 03:04:02 [Permalink]
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See? Told ya they hated it. 
Ok Bill, just to enhance the giggle factor, let's say it happened as written and the unfortunate Noah was called upon to build an Ark as described, and did so. Please explain exactly how he managed to put together such a vessel with Bronze Age tools and technology. Do correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that the Bible says a single word about a shipyard. And remember, this was built in a land where watercraft was and still is built from bundled reeds -- pretty decent watercraft too, I might add. They also build coastal vessels where the strakes are caulked with reeds and lashed together with twine -- no nails or screws. Interesting, no?
Further, I would like to know how such an unseaworthy, ramshackle, overloaded construct as the described Ark could survive even a squall, much less the howling misery that would be the natural course for such an event.
I would like to know where all that lumber came from and the Latin name for gopher wood so I can research it. Can't seem to find much on it under the common name, not much that's reliable anyway.
Occham's Razor states to the effect that given the available evidence, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. What evidence do you have to support your contention? "God Done it" ain't evidence, by the way. Before that can be accepted, God himself must be proven, and, as I recall, the Bible has quite a strong statement concerning proving that deity. Therefore, the simplest explanation is that, given the evidence, the whole story is as mythical as Philosopher's Stone.
As for doing one about abiogenesis, I'd like to but at the moment, I don't think so. Like everyone else, including those researching it, I simply don't know enough about it. That might change sometime in the future.
quote:
Further, Mount Everest extends through 2/3 of the Earth's atmosphere. Since two forms of matter can't occupy the same space, we have an additional problem with the atmosphere. Its current boundary marks the point at which gasses of the atmosphere can escape the Earth's gravitational field. Even allowing for partial dissolving of the atmosphere into our huge ocean, we'd lose the vast majority of our atmosphere as it is raised some 5.155 km higher by the rising flood waters; and it boils off into space.
I dunno, Dave. The above looks pretty good to me, although, thinking about it, Leipzig might have overstated it a bit. It stands to reason that there would be some atmosphere loss simply because the madmen who climb mountains have to breath supplemental oxygen well before reaching summits lower than Everest. How much loss and how much that would thin out what we earth-bound mortals breath is certainly open to question.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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