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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
 Posted - 06/16/2006 : 07:32:43
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I'm currently in a discussion over on christianforums.com. The discussion started on ID and used the arch to show that Irreducibly complex does not mean that it also had to be intelligently designed. After a while the discussion shifted, to which creature is the most advanced.
Basically, there are two opposing camps.
1. Pittguy: who thinks that humans are the most advanced, because we are the most intelligent and therefore, the most advanced.
2. The rest: who argue that intelligence is only one way of measuring advancement and that other measures give other conclusions (for example, dolphins are more advanced because they have a very efficient, aerodynamic shape is just as valid to say).
I was wondering what you guys think. Basically I was hoping for a discussion which goes a little bit further than 'no, it's obvious that humans are more intelligent and you can't see that because you are an idiot' and comments along those lines.
Also, I know there is research being done on the streamline of fish and other natural phenomenon to give us solutions to engineering problems, but can't find any good links on it. Any suggestions?
Oh, for those interested in reading the discussion:
http://www.christianforums.com/t3052660-mhstandard-argument-for-irreducible-complexity.html
It's reasonably long and hasn't got much substance, but some parts are quite funny in my opinion.
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
Edited by - tomk80 on 06/16/2006 07:33:24
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 06/16/2006 : 07:54:07 [Permalink]
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| For me its about survivability, humans would be near the top behind bacteria. Really though its the question that is the problem, it needs to be broken into, Advanced: in this way. Clearly the box fish is the most advanced with regard to hydrodynamics... but they sure do suck at making cars. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 08:17:15 [Permalink]
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"Advanced" implies a goal of some sort, and as we know, evolution has no goal; strives for nothing beyond adapting a species into an existing ecological niche. Thus, we are no more "advanced" than an amoeba, merely more complex to meet the requirements of our niche.
Tell 'em I said that the question is meaningless.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 08:41:00 [Permalink]
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| Halle Berry. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 08:57:27 [Permalink]
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However, if we couldn't save the earth, I bet the bacteria survive over humans.
And then from the surviving bacteria evolution will once again start.
So, I say the bacteria are the most advanced, because they can survive where we can't and they can be the building block for all other life forms on a planet. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 06/16/2006 08:59:04 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 09:02:14 [Permalink]
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| Let the ants try.... :D |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 09:04:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Sorry, I wasn't clear. When I say "Doomsday event", I mean everything dying. For example, if the sun were to turn into a red giant or the Earth was somehow knocked off it's orbit.
Well, in that case I would say all life forms suck. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 10:01:29 [Permalink]
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If an "advanced" species is one which survives a long time, then given that- the median "lifespan" of species on Earth is ten million years, and
- our species has been around for maybe 200,000 years,
then we've got a long way to go before we're even "above average," much less "advanced."
Hell, even Homo erectus has us beat by a factor of eight, so far.
And Ricky, every species changes its environment, simply through the act of metabolism. And even beavers make dramatic changes to their environment for a "purpose" (creating a safe home). What may be unique to humans is the ability to change our environment in ways that "transcend" instinctual drives. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 10:38:45 [Permalink]
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| Bacteria could conceivable survive the death of our star and lay dormant inside rocks waiting to splash down on Europa. They can survive a million things we cannot, not all of them but many... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 10:49:05 [Permalink]
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| I also think the most important 'advanced' ability is to recognise, predict and prevent envirnoment destructing forces, like the goofy but not impossible idea of deflecting an asteroid. Unfortunatly greed is a more powerful idea, which ends up trumping the previous. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2006 : 12:43:51 [Permalink]
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There are an infinite number of ways that species could be said to be more or less advanced. I agree with Filthy that the term is meaningless. The only thing that counts in nature and its process of evolution is survival. In that sense, every species now living could be (meaninglessly) said to be equally "advanced."
I, personally, think of species survival as the "goal" in evolution. But saying that nature has no goals is just as accurate. Goals are a human mental construct, and as such, we could not expect amoebae to have a formal goal.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2006 : 01:44:42 [Permalink]
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This question is meaningful to the same extent that "Who is the world's best sportsman?" or "What is the best movie ever made?" are. There is no objective way to qualify the questions and you are left with a more-or-less arbitrary choice of "important" features required of the "winner". If you have any sort of emotional interest in the outcome, this choice will most of all probably reflect the outcome you desire. In other words, you start with a conclusion and then you cherry-pick your variables(s) so that they support the conclusion. As already pointed out, this is meaningless (apart from the entertainment value, of course).
Saying that:
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I also think the most important 'advanced' ability is to recognise, predict and prevent envirnoment destructing forces, like the goofy but not impossible idea of deflecting an asteroid. Unfortunatly greed is a more powerful idea, which ends up trumping the previous.
Let me paraphrase this a bit.
Measurement of "advancedness" score sheet:
Point 38: The ability to foresee probable far-in-the-future disasters - add 10 points.
Point 39: The inability to perform actions alleviating the effects of foreseen probable far-in-the-future disasters - subtract 50 points. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2006 : 02:24:52 [Permalink]
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The question is intrinsically flawed.
You will never find consensus on what constitutes an "advanced" life form.
The question only has meaning within the context you set for the definition of "advanced" in regard to life.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2006 : 06:47:54 [Permalink]
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To put it another way...
It is like asking who is the "best" person on the planet.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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