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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 08/21/2006 : 10:55:54
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14309026/
Positive thinking in a bottle?
It appears placebos can alter brain chemisty, they are now looking for a way to harness this effect, Placebocillin anyone?
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 14:18:21 [Permalink]
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| Same dif with religion. Only the believers can't reconcile their own personal belief is sort of a self-induced placebo, in a manner of speaking. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 14:54:14 [Permalink]
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These guys are too late! There already is an industry dedicated to the use of placebos. It's called Homeopathy.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 19:17:01 [Permalink]
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| Just not that exciting of a news event, sorry. There is hardly any secret the mind has a physical influence on the body both positive and negative. There are many ways to achieve measurable differences besides placebos. Placebos may work but there are a million other things that work as well. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 00:18:15 [Permalink]
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It is rather old news, but still interesting. Here is an MP3 audio link from March 2004.
The one thing I wonder about is the suggestion that the placebo response could be used to identify individuals who would respond to antidepressants. If they are doing just as well on the placebo, why not keep them on it? Safer, cheaper and probalby fewer side effects. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 04:17:54 [Permalink]
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| Should we ever get out of the lab with this and into the pharmacy I wonder what the liability implication would be for the prescribing Dr., pharmacists, and placebo maker. I suspect that it could be huge. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 08/22/2006 04:18:28 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 08:56:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
Should we ever get out of the lab with this and into the pharmacy I wonder what the liability implication would be for the prescribing Dr., pharmacists, and placebo maker. I suspect that it could be huge.
As it stands, I don't think it's legal for an MD to perscribe a placebo. I need to check on that, and surely there are ways around the law in this case, but I think that is how it is... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 09:02:02 [Permalink]
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Well, on the Andy Griffith show, the pharmacist prescribed sugar pills to all the old ladies in town who thought they were getting some kind of "pep" medicine and that worked, so what's the problem? Needless to say, the old ladies were very mad when they found out they were just getting sugar pills.
Edited: cuz me cain't spul. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/22/2006 09:27:46 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 09:18:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
Should we ever get out of the lab with this and into the pharmacy I wonder what the liability implication would be for the prescribing Dr., pharmacists, and placebo maker. I suspect that it could be huge.
As it stands, I don't think it's legal for an MD to perscribe a placebo. I need to check on that, and surely there are ways around the law in this case, but I think that is how it is...
Well, you'd notice when your prescription reads "20 tablets, water pills" at a cost of 52 cents (actually $8,437, but 52 cents with health insurance). So the doc would have to think up some sneaky tactics... |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 14:02:22 [Permalink]
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| As far as I know, it's not illegal to prescribe known placebos, but it is unethical and so can get a doctor's license to practice stripped from them anyway. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 20:50:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
As far as I know, it's not illegal to prescribe known placebos, but it is unethical and so can get a doctor's license to practice stripped from them anyway.
You know what's funny about that? Doctors almost routinely prescribed antibiotics to people with viral infections because the patients wanted something to make to make them better. Medicine on demand. And the doctors knew that the antibiotics were useless against a viral infection. The doctors were prescribing antibiotics as placeboes.
They don't do that as much anymore for a very good reason. But my guess is the docs still do prescribe meds for other conditions that will not really do anything but make a patient think he is going to get better by taking pill. Again, a placebo.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 21:11:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Originally posted by moakley
Should we ever get out of the lab with this and into the pharmacy I wonder what the liability implication would be for the prescribing Dr., pharmacists, and placebo maker. I suspect that it could be huge.
As it stands, I don't think it's legal for an MD to perscribe a placebo. I need to check on that, and surely there are ways around the law in this case, but I think that is how it is...
It may be a gray area legally, but I have seen it done several times. Remember, the criteria for liability is harm done. If there were a better treatment the patient missed out on you'd be liable. And the FDA only regulates prescription drugs so if one gave a placebo, the FDA would not be the enforcing body necessarily. I doubt they would fight a prescriber over whether the placebo was the correct prescription for that patient at that time. It differs considerably from selling a product with false claims of its efficacy. The Board of Pharmacy would oversee prescriptive practices and a placebo would not be under their jurisdiction. That leaves the Board of Nursing for an NP and the Board of Medicine for an MD or PA. They would likely OK the practice in limited circumstances.
I have had an MD order saline for an addict requesting pain medicine with the instructions not to disclose it wasn't Demerol.
And I think I told you all about the cherry syrup incident for the non-English speaking parent who insisted on something for their vomiting child. The parent brought in a coffee can of vomit they had also used for an ashtray. Until the translator got there the doctor and the rest of us assumed the child had ingested and tossed cigarettes. So we gave ipecac to induce vomiting. I think it was a bit of guilt that made the doctor order the syrup but it was also to help the parents feel safer about the child's illness. This was at the time some Hmong tribal members were mysteriously dying in their sleep. It was a Hmong family.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/22/2006 21:20:48 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2006 : 21:38:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
You know what's funny about that? Doctors almost routinely prescribed antibiotics to people with viral infections because the patients wanted something to make to make them better. Medicine on demand. And the doctors knew that the antibiotics were useless against a viral infection. The doctors were prescribing antibiotics as placeboes.
They don't do that as much anymore for a very good reason. But my guess is the docs still do prescribe meds for other conditions that will not really do anything but make a patient think he is going to get better by taking pill. Again, a placebo.
Well, except that I've read reports by doctors who said that prescribing antibiotics to patients with headcolds was done because many patients refuse to acknowledge "you're just going to have to take over-the-counter cold medications until it's done" and some even refuse to leave the office until the doctor does something.
It would have been much better, from an antibiotic-resistance point of view, for doctors to have had the fortitude to respond to such patients, "Nothing I can do will help, get the hell out of my office." But even nowadays... the last time I went to the doctor for what I knew was just a cold (my wife insisted I go), he gave me antibiotics even after I asked, "do I really need this?" The answer was, "well, you may have a touch of bronchitis."
On the other hand, I was very much grateful for the prescription-strength cough syrup. That stuff, even though it tastes evil, kicks the butt of anything on the grocery store shelves.
(I can't help but be reminded of the episode of ER in which, during a flu outbreak, an exasperated Dr. Greene looks out on a waiting room overflowing with sniffling people and declares "We cannot do anything for you. You all have the flu. Go home." Or words to that effect - it's been years since I saw that one.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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