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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts
Posted - 10/19/2006 :  11:24:11  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That Dave and/or another moderator is deleting text from my posts.

For days Dave and others have been asking for evidence. And when I post it, it is all deleted--twice.

Even comments I make to others' posts are being deleted.

Why that, dave?
No witty quotes. I think for myself.

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts
Posted - 10/19/2006 :  11:48:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I stated before, you are full of shit. That is an observation, so I don't have to provide evidence.
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts
Posted - 10/19/2006 :  11:53:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123

That Dave and/or another moderator is deleting text from my posts.

For days Dave and others have been asking for evidence. And when I post it, it is all deleted--twice.
As I stated: there were clear copyright concerns.
quote:
Even comments I make to others' posts are being deleted.
Really? I don't recall deleting anything of yours besides one-and-a-half of your two "molten steel" OPs, one of which you've restored and will stay.
quote:
Why that, dave?
Good question.
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts
Posted - 10/19/2006 :  19:15:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ergo, do you wish to pursue the charge that comments you've made in response to other people's posts have been deleted?
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2006 :  06:28:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, what a shocker. Another troll who is so self obsessed that they think they are being targeted and harassed when they violate the site's copyright rules and a mod edits their post.
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2006 :  08:56:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

ergo, do you wish to pursue the charge that comments you've made in response to other people's posts have been deleted?


On page 1 of "molten metal," cunie asked:

It makes sense to an extent, but it's odd. Generally, when a person believes in one possibility over others, they do so for a reason or reasons, and those reasons usually involve some piece of compelling evidence.

So perhaps what you mean is "I don't know how X happened, but I'm partial to solution A even if there isn't much evidence to support it. I am interested in finding out more about solution A and wonder if people can discuss it." Maybe?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I responded to him a bit later. My response was a comment pointing out that that is exactly what I did on my first post on this forum--then pasted the text of my very first post here which reads:

I'm new to this site. I have just recently seen Loose Change and other sites that don't believe the government's conspiricy theory of what happened on 9/11/01.

Loose Change, as I'm sure you all know, plays fast and loose with information. But some of the other sites (like scholars for truth.org) show evidence that it is physically impossible for the buildings to have fallen as fast as they did due to gravity alone.

Has this been discussed on the forum? If so, please direct me to that discussion. If not, does anyone have the expertise to comment on how the buildings could fall at near-free-fall speed?

I've seen one analysis by Ross that show the falling upper block of floors would not have enough energy to collapse the first impacted floor. And then there is the problem of Building 7 which had no "upper block" of floors to impact anything.

I'm looking for evidence (not just opinion) that the administration was NOT behind the events of 9/11.

Thanks!

Steve

As you can see from my response to cunie that shows up in molten metal, my comment to him and the text of my first post here do not show up in the post.

Of course, I have no evidence to this as I do not have access to the server (and wouldn't know what to do with that access even if i had it).

But that is what occurred.

No witty quotes. I think for myself.
No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2006 :  13:19:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123

As you can see from my response to cunie that shows up in molten metal, my comment to him and the text of my first post here do not show up in the post.
Yup, and I thought that was odd when I first saw it, but clicking the "Post New Reply" button happens often enough, even with long-time users, that it wasn't particularly out-of-the-ordinary.
quote:
Of course, I have no evidence to this as I do not have access to the server (and wouldn't know what to do with that access even if i had it).

But that is what occurred.
Tonight, I will check yesterday's logs to see if anyone edited that particular post and when. No problem.
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2006 :  18:11:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Dave. My apologies in advance if it was just a system glitch.
No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts
Posted - 10/20/2006 :  23:12:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's just after 2 AM here. I've spent the last four hours working to distill a 15-megabyte log file down to just the relevant events, attempting to respect people's privacy along the way. I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to keep this up tonight, but it looks like the answer will not be forthcoming before tomorrow (Saturday) night at the earliest. Because right now I can tell there's definitely something odd in the logs, and I want to be absolutely sure of the events and their chronology before posting any sort of hypothesis about what happened.
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2006 :  05:53:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

It's just after 2 AM here. I've spent the last four hours working to distill a 15-megabyte log file down to just the relevant events, attempting to respect people's privacy along the way. I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to keep this up tonight, but it looks like the answer will not be forthcoming before tomorrow (Saturday) night at the earliest. Because right now I can tell there's definitely something odd in the logs, and I want to be absolutely sure of the events and their chronology before posting any sort of hypothesis about what happened.


Holy crap--4 hours? I appreciate the effort. But unless you are at the point where it's about "solving the puzzle," I'd say it's not worth that kind of time.

I'm okay with leaving it as 'something odd happened' if you want to drop it.
No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2006 :  07:23:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123

quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

It's just after 2 AM here. I've spent the last four hours working to distill a 15-megabyte log file down to just the relevant events, attempting to respect people's privacy along the way. I'm not sure how much longer I'll be able to keep this up tonight, but it looks like the answer will not be forthcoming before tomorrow (Saturday) night at the earliest. Because right now I can tell there's definitely something odd in the logs, and I want to be absolutely sure of the events and their chronology before posting any sort of hypothesis about what happened.


Holy crap--4 hours? I appreciate the effort. But unless you are at the point where it's about "solving the puzzle," I'd say it's not worth that kind of time.

I'm okay with leaving it as 'something odd happened' if you want to drop it.
This goes beyond the post you mentioned ergo. If the problem is systemic, it needs to be fixed. We absolutely do not delete or edit posts simply because we don't agree with the content. Beyond copyright violations, extremely offensive language, spam, duplicate posts or posts submitted by banned members who sometimes come back as sock-puppets, the content of your posts should be safe from administrative action.
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2006 :  08:09:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreeing with what Kil said, the charge that you've made, ergo, is extremely serious. If the problem is not systematic, then we - the staff - have a responsibility to confront the perpetrator. And if it is systematic, then (as Kil said) it needs to be repaired so that it never happens again. "Something odd happened" is about as satisfactory for us as "just a coincidence" is for you, which is why I spent another two hours on this issue last night before going to bed, and why as soon as I get a chance today, I will continue to pursue the solution. The end of the process is in sight.
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2006 :  10:23:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

Agreeing with what Kil said, the charge that you've made, ergo, is extremely serious. If the problem is not systematic, then we - the staff - have a responsibility to confront the perpetrator. And if it is systematic, then (as Kil said) it needs to be repaired so that it never happens again. "Something odd happened" is about as satisfactory for us as "just a coincidence" is for you, which is why I spent another two hours on this issue last night before going to bed, and why as soon as I get a chance today, I will continue to pursue the solution. The end of the process is in sight.


No problem. Your reasons for wanting to continue are sound. I just wanted you to know that, from my personal pov, I didn't need you to pursue it further.

Of course, I am curious to know what happened.
No witty quotes. I think for myself.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts
Posted - 10/21/2006 :  23:26:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, here are the observations from the logs. Only three topics are tracked for reference, "Molten Metal," "Molten Metal 2" and "It seems very strange to me." The logs run from when "Molten Metal" was first posted to your description of the problem, ergo. The timestamps are GMT (seven hours ahead of server time), and the listing beings on the 19th of October, 2006 (and ends nearly 24 hours later). And the times don't always match up to the times listed on each post as you can view them (the log times are off by up to seven seconds, from what I've seen), and I have no explanation for that, since I am not knowledgable about how, precisely, the logs are created. More discussion will follow the logs.
  1. 16:05:35 ergo123 posted a new topic, "Molten Metal"

  2. 16:06:36 ergo123 posted reply 104369 in another topic

  3. 16:10:43 Kil posted reply 104370 in another topic

  4. 16:25:13 HalfMooner posted reply 104371 in another topic

  5. 16:26:41 HalfMooner posted reply 104372 in another topic

  6. 16:29:25 Cuneiformist posted reply 104373 in Molten Metal

  7. 16:41:08 Dave W. began editing the OP in Molten Metal

  8. 17:06:43 Paulos23 posted reply 104374 in another topic

  9. 17:12:14 Chaloobi posted reply 104375 in another topic

  10. 17:13:19 Dave W. began editing the OP in Molten Metal

  11. 17:15:34 Cuneiformist posted reply 104376 in another topic

  12. 17:17:26 moakley posted reply 104377 in another topic

  13. 17:18:32 moakley edited reply 104377

  14. 17:20:02 Dave W. finished editing the OP in Molten Metal

  15. 17:21:13 Dave W. posted reply 104378 in Molten Metal

  16. 17:40:11 Chippewa posted reply 104379 in another topic

  17. 17:50:50 Dave W. posted reply 104380 in Molten Metal

  18. 17:51:40 ergo123 posted a new topic, "Molten Metal 2"

  19. 17:52:05 Dave W. posted reply 104381 in another topic

  20. 17:52:27 Dave W. began editing the OP in Molten Metal 2

  21. 17:53:18 Dave W. finished editing the OP in Molten Metal 2

  22. 17:53:23 Cuneiformist posted reply 104382 in Molten Metal

  23. 17:53:30 Dave W. locked Molten Metal 2

  24. 18:01:41 ergo123 posted a missing reply to reply 104373 in Molten Metal

  25. 18:03:07 upriver posted reply 104384 in Molten Metal

  26. 18:07:08 Dave W. posted reply 104385 to reply 104383 (now missing) in Molten Metal

  27. 18:08:35 ergo123 posted a missing reply in Molten Metal

  28. 18:11:14 ergo123 posted reply 104387 in another topic

  29. 18:11:35 ergo123 began editing the OP in Molten Metal

  30. 18:12:01 beskeptigal posted reply 104388 in another topic

  31. 18:12:23 Dr. Mabuse posted reply 104389 in another topic

  32. 18:14:09 Cuneiformist posted reply 104390 (the one ergo references, above) to reply 104383 (now missing) in Molten Metal

  33. 18:14:26 H. Humbert posted reply 104391 to reply 104386 (now missing) in Molten Metal

  34. 18:15:10 ergo123 finished editing the OP in Molten Metal

  35. 18:15:27 Dave W. posted reply 104392 in Molten Metal

  36. 18:16:01 H. Humbert edited reply 104391

  37. 18:16:22 ergo123 posted a missing reply in Molten Metal

  38. 18:16:43 furshur posted reply 104394 in Molten Metal

  39. 18:17:17 Dave W. posted reply 104395 in Molten Metal

  40. 18:18:37 Dave W. posted reply 104396 in another topic

  41. 18:19:24 Cuneiformist posted reply 104397 in Molten Metal

  42. 18:19:36 ergo123 posted reply 104398 in Molten Metal

  43. 18:20:31 ergo123 posted a reply to 104390 for which there is no record in Molten Metal

  44. 18:20:42 ergo123 posted reply 104399 to reply 104390 in Molten Metal

  45. 18:21:07 upriver posted reply 104400 in another topic

  46. 18:24:12 ergo123 posted a new topic, "It seems very strange to me"

  47. 18:26:23 ergo123 posted reply 104401 in another topic

  48. 18:26:24 furshur posted reply 104402 in Molten Metal

  49. 18:28:25 ergo123 began editing the OP in Molten Metal

  50. 18:29:04 ergo123 began editing the OP in Molten Metal

  51. 18:29:36 ergo123 finished editing the OP in Molten Metal

  52. 18:30:56 ergo123 posted reply 104403 in Molten Metal

  53. 18:31:39 ergo123 edited reply 104403

  54. 18:32:29 Cuneiformist posted reply 104404 in Molten Metal

  55. 18:34:33 ergo123 posted reply 104405 in Molten Metal

  56. 18:42:17 Dr. Mabuse posted reply 104406 in another topic

  57. 18:42:55 Dr. Mabuse edited reply 104406

  58. 18:45:02 McQ posted reply 104407 in another topic

  59. 18:48:51 pleco posted reply 104408 in It seems very strange to me

  60. 18:49:26 Dr. Mabuse posted reply 104409 in another topic

  61. 18:50:01 BigPapaSmurf posted reply 104410 in another topic

  62. 18:52:28 Dr. Mabuse posted reply 104411 in another topic

  63. 18:53:19 Dave W. posted reply 104412 in It seems very strange to me

  64. 18:56:48 Dave W. posted reply 104413 in another topic

  65. 18:57:59 Dave W. posted reply 104414 in Molten Metal

  66. 19:10:38 Cuneiformist posted reply 104415 in Molten Metal

  67. 19:25:31 Mycroft posted reply 104416 in another topic

  68. 19:48:05 ergo123 posted reply 104417 in Molten Metal

  69. 19:49:02 tomk80 posted reply 104418 in another topic

  70. 19:49:17 ergo123 posted reply 104419 in Molten Metal

  71. 19:49:37 H. Humbert posted reply 104420 in Molten Metal

  72. 19:50:07 ergo123 began deleting reply 104393

  73. 19:50:24 ergo123 deleted reply 104393 from Molten Metal

  74. 19:50:35 ergo123 began deleting reply 104383

  75. 19:50:48 ergo123 deleted reply 104383 from Molten Metal

  76. 19:51:02 ergo123 began deleting reply 104386

  77. 19:51:28 ergo123 deleted reply 104386 from Molten Metal

  78. 20:01:52 furshur posted reply 104421 in Molten Metal

  79. 20:06:54 furshur posted reply 104422 in Molten Metal

  80. 20:50:50 ergo123 posted reply 104423 in another topic

  81. 20:54:56 ergo123 posted reply 104424 in Molten Metal

  82. 20:57:26 ergo123 posted reply 104425 in Molten Metal

  83. 21:14:08 Dr. Mabuse posted reply 104426 in Molten Metal

  84. 21:14:22 Original Intent posted reply 104427 in another topic

  85. 21:36:07 filthy posted reply 104428 in Molten Metal

  86. 21:40:53 Dr. Mabuse posted reply 104429 in another topic

  87. 21:54:09 ergo123 posted reply 104430 in Molten Metal

  88. 21:58:52 Cuneiformist posted reply 104431 in Molten Metal

  89. 21:59:56 filthy posted reply 104432 in another topic

  90. 22:23:07 ergo123 posted reply 104433 in Molten Metal

  91. 22:26:04 ergo123 posted reply 104434 in another topic

  92. 22:32:49 Cuneiformist posted reply 104435 in Molten Metal

  93. 22:36:12 Cuneiformist edited reply 104435

  94. 22:41:59 filthy posted reply 104436 in another topic

  95. 22:43:21 Dr. Mabuse posted reply 104437 in Molten Metal

  96. 23:02:56 ergo123 posted reply 104438 in Molten Metal

  97. 23:04:36 ergo123 posted reply 104439 in Molten Metal

  98. 23:05:05 ergo123 edited reply 104439

  99. 23:06:39 filthy posted reply 104440 in Molten Metal

  100. 23:19:10 filthy posted reply 104441 in another topic

  101. 23:37:09 ergo123 posted reply 104442 in Molten Metal

  102. 23:38:30 ergo123 posted reply 104443 in another topic

  103. 23:44:59 Cuneiformist posted reply 104444 in Molten Metal

  104. 23:47:03 Cuneiformist posted reply 104445 in Molten Metal

  105. 00:06:49 ergo123 posted reply 104446 in Molten Metal

  106. 00:09:16 ergo123 posted reply 104447 in Molten Metal

  107. 00:14:43 filthy posted reply 104448 in Molten Metal

  108. 00:22:44 Boron10 posted reply 104449 in another topic

  109. 00:25:13 H. Humbert posted reply 104450 in Molten Metal

  110. 00:30:19 Dave W. posted reply 104451 in Molten Metal

  111. 00:30:49 filthy posted reply 104452 in Molten Metal

  112. 00:35:30 ergo123 posted reply 104453 in Molten Metal

  113. 00:35:34 filthy posted reply 104454 in Molten Metal

  114. 00:40:11 ergo123 posted reply 104455 in Molten Metal

  115. 00:41:03 ergo123 posted a reply to 104451 for which there is no record in Molten Metal

  116. 00:41:30 ergo123 posted reply 104456 in Molten Metal

  117. 00:43:20 H. Humbert posted reply 104457 in Molten Metal

  118. 00:45:09 Kil posted reply 104458 in Molten Metal

  119. 00:45:34 Kil began editing reply 104458

  120. 00:45:44 H. Humbert posted reply 104459 in Molten Metal

  121. 00:46:13 H. Humbert edited reply 104459

  122. 00:46:17 Cuneiformist posted reply 104460 in Molten Metal

  123. 00:46:20 Kil finished editing reply 104458

  124. 00:46:45 H. Humbert edited reply 104459

  125. 00:46:57 Kil began editing reply 104458

  126. 00:48:24 Kil finished editing reply 104458

  127. 00:49:00 Cuneiformist began editing reply 104458

  128. 00:49:03 Kil began editing reply 104458

  129. 00:49:37 Cuneiformist finished editing reply 104458

  130. 00:49:47 Kil finished editing reply 104458

  131. 00:49:51 Cuneiformist began editing reply 104458

  132. 00:50:43 Cuneiformist finished editing reply 104458

  133. 01:24:51 moakley posted reply 104461 in another topic

  134. 01:32:39 Dave W. posted reply 104462 in Molten Metal

  135. 02:10:11 Dave W. posted reply 104463 in another topic

  136. 02:13:54 Dave W. posted reply 104464 in another topic

  137. 02:14:46 H. Humbert posted reply 104465 in another topic

  138. 02:15:06 H. Humbert edited reply 104465

  139. 02:15:36 Dave W. posted reply 104466 in It seems very strange to me

  140. 02:28:32 ergo123 posted reply 104467 in Molten Metal

  141. 02:32:28 Dave W. posted reply 104468 in another topic

  142. 02:33:19 ergo123 posted reply 104469 in Molten Metal

  143. 02:35:20 ergo123 posted reply 104470 in Molten Metal

  144. 02:36:01 ergo123 edited reply 104470

  145. 02:36:28 Kil posted reply 104471 in another topic

  146. 02:37:32 ergo123 posted reply 104472 in Molten Metal

  147. 02:41:04 Dave W. posted reply 104473 in another topic

  148. 02:48:02 H. Humbert posted reply 104474 in Molten Metal

  149. 02:53:35 ergo123 posted reply 104475 in Molten Metal

  150. 02:57:44 Dave W. posted reply 104476 in Molten Metal

  151. 02:59:33 Dr. Mabuse posted reply 104477 in another topic

  152. 03:00:39 Chippewa posted reply 104478 in another topic

  153. 03:02:42 Mycroft posted reply 104479 in another topic

  154. 03:03:52 Dave W. posted reply 104480 in another topic

  155. 03:05:41 Chippewa edited reply 104478

  156. 03:07:26 Dave W. posted reply 104481 in another topic

  157. 03:07:30 Master Yoda posted reply 104482 in Molten Metal

  158. 03:10:35 Chippewa edited reply 104379

  159. 03:12:03 Dr. Mabuse posted reply 104483 in Molten Metal

  160. 03:28:34 Randy posted reply 104484 in another topic

  161. 03:37:19 Dave W. posted reply 104485 in Molten Metal

  162. 03:40:56 Dave W. posted reply 104486 in another topic

  163. 03:42:03 Cuneiformist posted reply 104487 in Molten Metal

  164. 03:48:00 Dr. Mabuse posted reply 104488 in Molten Metal

  165. 03:49:57 Dr. Mabuse edited reply 104488

  166. 04:34:05 HalfMooner posted reply 104489 in another topic

  167. 04:49:43 HalfMooner posted reply 104490 in another topic

  168. 05:10:55 ergo123 posted reply 104491 in Molten Metal

  169. 05:11:33 HalfMooner posted reply 104492 in another topic

  170. 05:59:26 H. Humbert posted reply 104493 in another topic

  171. 06:24:22 ergo123 posted reply 104494 in Molten Metal

  172. 06:26:57 H. Humbert posted reply 104495 in Molten Metal

  173. 06:31:14 H. Humbert edited reply 104495

  174. 06:49:31 H. Humbert edited reply 104495

  175. 07:03:15 ergo123 posted reply 104496 in Molten Metal

  176. 07:30:04 HalfMooner edited reply 104489

  177. 07:40:10 HalfMooner posted reply 104497 in another topic

  178. 08:09:22 ergo123 posted reply 104498 in Molten Metal

  179. 08:56:20 beskeptigal posted reply 104499 in another topic

  180. 09:14:20 tomk80 posted reply 104500 in another topic

  181. 09:14:46 tomk80 edited reply 104500

  182. 09:28:05 beskeptigal posted reply 104501 in another topic

  183. 09:34:34 beskeptigal posted reply 104502 in another topic

  184. 09:39:21 filthy posted reply 104503 in Molten Metal

  185. 09:57:50 filthy posted reply 104504 in another topic

  186. 10:16:10 filthy posted reply 104505 in another topic

  187. 11:49:39 Cuneiformist posted reply 104506 in Molten Metal

  188. 12:20:31 BigPapaSmurf posted reply 104507 in another topic

  189. 12:26:37 filthy posted reply 104508 in Molten Metal

  190. 13:22:46 chaloobi posted reply 104509 in another topic

  191. 13:28:42 Dude posted reply 104510 in It seems very strange to me

  192. 13:36:51 Dude posted reply 104511 in Molten Metal

  193. 13:59:25 pleco posted a missing reply in Molten Metal

  194. 13:59:30 pleco began deleting reply 104512

  195. 13:59:33 pleco deleted reply 104512 from Molten Metal

  196. 15:12:13 Paulos23 posted reply 104513 in another topic

  197. 15:19:08 Gorgo posted reply 104514 in another topic

  198. 15:56:04 ergo123 posted reply 104515 in It seems very strange to me
The first thing that struck me here was that all the reply IDs (original posts starting topics do not get reply IDs) are pleasantly consecutive, allowing for easy identification of missing replies. We can all easily see that the replies run from 104369 up to 1045515. Only four replies are missing: 104383, 104386, 104393 and 104512. That last one was due to pleco deleting a reply of his own creation (events 193-195, and I apologize to you pleco, for letting it be known that you posted something you didn't want posted for eight seconds, I'll make it up to you somehow).

The other three missing replies were all originally posted by you, ergo, and subsequently deleted by you (the six all-red events numbered 72 through 77). An hour-and-a-half after you started this topic. They are what prompted me to put "missing reply" and "now missing" notes in red in several places between events 24 and 37. No matter, let's move on to the edits.

Of course, I've already admitted to editing the original posts for both "Molten Metal" and "Molten Metal 2." I stand by my actions there, still. And you re-edited "Molten Metal" on two separate occessions, but of course you knew that. But that's not what you were concerned about, ergo, was it? No, you were concerned that some of your replies to other members' comments had been edited. Let's see who was editing what, above:
  • Chippewa edited his own replies 104379 and 104478,
  • Cune edited his own reply 104435,
  • Mab edited his own replies 104406 and 104488,
  • moakley edited his own reply 104377,
  • H. Humbert edited his own replies 104391, 104459 (twice), 104465 and 104495 (twice),
  • HalfMooner edited his own reply 104489,
  • Kil and Cune both obviously had some problems with Kil's reply 104458 (see the 00:45:34 to 00:50:43 timeframe - what the heck was that, guys?), and
  • tomk80 edited his own reply 104500.
So, nobody - not even staff - made any edits to your replies in the timeframe in question. Cune was the only one to edit a reply not his own, and the one he edited was Kil's, not yours.

No, the only person to edit any of your replies, ergo, was you. You edited replies 104403, 104439 and 104470. No sweat, you didn't express concern over any of those posts, let's move on to what really happened.

The two-all blue events, 43 and 115, were what concerned me. "How could you get to the 'New Reply Posted!' page (post_info.asp) without having a reply show up at all in a topic?" I kept asking myself. It took a while for me to realize that not only did no reply show up in any topic, but the logs clearly show that the reply ID wasn't incremented at all. In event 42, you posted reply 104398. In event 43, a reply vanishes without a trace. And then in event 44, you posted reply 104399. Same with events 114 to 116 (except there it is replies 104455 and 104456).

What happened finally dawned on me. You, ergo, are a victim of flood control. This Website's forums have a feature called "flood control" to help keep spammers from clogging up the site with automated messages. Normal users (like yourself) aren't allowed to post more than once per minute (60 seconds - time it). If you post too quickly, you will see a message like this:

There has been a problem!

Sorry! We have flood control activated.
You cannot post within 60 seconds of your last post.
Please try again after this period of time elapses.

Go back to correct the problem.


The last line (the blue one) in the real message is a link which will take you back to wherever you were posting from, with your message intact in the edit box, ready for you to hit the submit button again in a few seconds.

The reason I couldn't see this right away is that the "New Reply Posted!" and "There has been a problem!" pages are both the same page - post_info.asp - it justs outputs different text depending on the situation. The other reason I wasn't thinking about this is that site Administrators (and perhaps Moderators, too) aren't subject to flood control. I can post messages as often as I want, I hadn't seen the flood control message in years until today (I had to create a regular test user tonight just to prove this scenario to myself). We've even had a complaint about flood control, though it took me a while to remember that, too.

Now, the actual Web logs for this site show a lot more detail than what is listed above, but nobody needs to see loads of images, supplemental page code, 404 errors, views of "Active Topics," our homepage or our articles (among many other irrelevant things) to understand what happened. There are, in fact, 36,610 log entries between events 1 and 198 in the above list, but most of them wouldn't help to solve this problem, so during the hours I've been working on this, much of it was writing some quick Java code to "filter" the logs down to a managable level. But I'm going to show some of the details around the flood control episodes now, taken from the logs by hand. First, the second one:
00:35:34 ergo123 viewed page 3 of Molten Metal
00:36:05 ergo123 began to compose a reply to reply 104450
00:39:21 ergo123 previewed his reply
00:40:11 ergo123 posted reply 104455 in Molten Metal (event 114, above)
00:40:15 ergo123 viewed page 3 of Molten Metal
00:40:49 ergo123 began to compose a reply to reply 104451
00:41:03 ergo123 tried and failed to post a reply to 104451 (event 115, above)
00:41:30 ergo123 posted reply 104456 in reply to 104451 in Molten Metal (event 116, above)
00:41:34 ergo123 viewed page 3 of Molten Metal
00:41:46 ergo123 viewed page 5 of "A simple question"
Now, 00:41:03 minus 00:40:11 is only 52 seconds, so the flood control kicked in. Perhaps if you'd previewed that post, like you did with your previous reply, you wouldn't have hit that message at all. Maybe. Eight seconds might have been a lot of preview for a post that took all of 52 seconds to type.

Anyway, here's the former flood control hit, the one you actually pointed to in your complaint:
18:18:58 ergo123 viewed the "Conspiracy Theories" folder
18:19:02 ergo123 viewed Molten Metal
18:19:36 ergo123 posted reply 104398 in Molten Metal (event 42, above) via the "quick reply" box
18:19:40 ergo123 viewed Molten Metal
18:19:48 ergo123 began to compose a reply to reply 104390 (Cune's post, remember)
18:20:22 ergo123 previewed his reply
18:20:31 ergo123 tried and failed to post a reply to 104390 (event 43, above)
18:20:34 ergo123 began to compose another reply to 104390
18:20:42 ergo123 posted reply 104399 in reply to reply 104390 (event 44, above)
18:20:45 ergo123 viewed Molten Metal
18:21:24 ergo123 viewed page 2 of Molten Metal
Same thing this first time. 18:20:31 minus 18:19:36 is only 55 seconds, so flood control hit you. But instead of clicking the helpful link that would have taken you back with your previewed post intact, my hypothesis (well, actually, it's the best possible theory we've got about this incident) is that you clicked the "Back" button in your browser, which probably erased everything you typed, and left the edit box in the state it was right after you clicked the "Reply with Quote" button the first time, at 18:19:48. If so, you saw the standard "Reply" page, with a bunch of text in the box, you didn't bother to preview again, and you clicked the "Post New Reply" button in just eight seconds after the page was served to you. It's an understandable mistake for someone who's only been a member for 24 days. No big deal.

No big deal. No sweat. No matter. Yes, there is no rule here against editing your own posts. There's no rule against deleting your own posts (though you, ergo, deleted at least one post which had already been quoted, possibly confusing future readers). And there certainly isn't any rule against making rookie mistakes when faced with a flood control message. None of this bothers me at all.

What does bother me, and it bothers me a lot, is the fact that you immediately assumed the worst about the folks here. While I did, indeed, edit your original posts in two topics, I was up-front and straightforward with you about it. I told you explicitly my reasons for modifying your posts. I was in no way trying to hide anything, especially since I put a link to the source of your copy-and-paste in my first edit of "Molten Metal." I'm sure you'll also note that nobody has deleted what you wanted to write to Cune since you reposted it here in this thread (I've linked to it enough already), and so it's obvious that nobody is trying to hide that. Why would anyone want to delete that reply, anyway? Why would anyone have wanted to delete it the first time? (These questions don't require a response.)

So despite the fact that we - the staff of the SFN - are open and honest about our duties and responsibilities here, you instead assumed the absolute worst and wrote:
quote:
Even comments I make to others' posts are being deleted.

Why that, dave?
You didn't even have the common decency to mention possibility that what had happened was something of your doing. Not a "I saw some strange message," or even a "the site may have been acting a bit odd at the time" note to accompany your complaint. Not even a simple, "I'm really not sure of what might have happened." Maybe your ISP is so bad that you honestly missed those pages being served to you, but you haven't given us any reason to think that, either. You didn't even have the guts to later say, "oh, by the way, I did delete some messages on my own after posting this topic - I'm not concerned about those."

No, you screwed up, and then complained about that single mistake using the plural, 'comments', and attempted to place all the blame either on the SFN staff, other users or our software. You hypocritically expressed no open-mindedness about the possibility that it was your fault.

Had you expressed such self-doubts - which every good skeptic has - I wouldn't have worked so hard to carefully examine and present every detail that I ethically could. I still would have found your problem, but it would have taken much less than the seventeen or so hours I've put into this effort, thoroughly ruining my weekend. You tried to tell me to not follow-up on this as much as I have, but given how you've behaved in other threads, I believe your attempts to get me to chalk your problem up to "a system glitch" were due to both fear that I'd find your mistake after your posturing and because you would have liked to have said "well, the site ate another one of my replies, what I really meant was blah, blah, blah." There was no way I could have stopped looking.

So here's the deal. We at the SFN tend towards a "three strikes" sort of rule, and try to moderate forum behaviour by doling out "official warnings" until a member has three, at which point they get banned. This is all out in the open, for everyone to see. (The only immediate bannings have been sock-puppeteers and obvious spammers.)

ergo123, you are getting an official warning right now for pissing me off with this bogus complaint of yours. Yes, it's due to anger. I concede to my emotions - nay, even embrace them. While I did manage to get my yardwork done today, I had other plans that I was compelled to put aside by the seriousness of the charges you leveled, only to find out that the real problem was simple inexperience on your part.

I will eliminate that warning (so you go back to zero strikes, like everyone else who's currently a member) if you will make a straightforward apology (no ifs or buts) to me and the rest of the staff. Admitting that you saw the flood control messages would go a long way towards making me pleased, as well.

On the other hand, I will add another warning if you decide to try to argue with the evidence I've presented (since you implied you're not knowledgable enough with "I do not have access to the server (and wouldn't know what to do with that access even if i had it)"), or if you try to argue about the fairness of the deal I'm presenting (you want fairness, start your own Website), or if you mention Freud, Jung or Damasio (or any of their works) to me (or, really, anyone) again, or make any other attempt at Internet psychoanalysis (ditto). Or, actually, reply in such a way to further enrage me.

Plus, I'll go right ahead an ban you outright if you make any sort of suggestion that I've faked the above log events, or suggest that I'm only doing this because I'm "afraid of the truth" - or worse yet, in league with the "government conspirators." And it's been a long-standing rule with me that I will go ahead and ban anyone who suggests that I go ahead and ban them.

So, what's it going to be, ergo? The ball is in your court, and how you play will depend, I imagine, entirely on how much you value the discussions you've been having here. If you are the run-of-the-mill 9/11 Internet troll that many people here think you are, then I would expect that I (or Kil, who I'm sure will back me on this) will be banning you sometime in the very near future. If not, then we'll find a way to get along.

Right now, it's up to you.
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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ergo123
BANNED

USA
810 Posts
Posted - 10/22/2006 :  00:29:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ergo123 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
FYI--the posts of mine that I deleted were the ones that said I wasn't going to respond on molten metal, but i would on molten metal 2 .

Then, after noticing you locked 2, i deteted those post saying i wouldn't respond--so as not to direct people to a locked thread.

As for the flood message, i have gotten that message many times and have successfully used the 'fix this problem' link.

While it is possible i used the back button, i had not used it for any of my other flood-controlled responses--so odds are i did not use it then.

As for blaming staff, well, like you and your warning I was pissed. As you can see, when you mentioned you would look into it, i apologized in advance if it was a system problem. I guess the difference between what we do when we realize we've acted in anger is that I apologize and you warn.

But hey, it's your sandbox...
No witty quotes. I think for myself.
Edited by - ergo123 on 10/22/2006 00:33:31
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts
Posted - 10/22/2006 :  00:40:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123

FYI--the posts of mine that I deleted were the ones that said I wasn't going to respond on molten metal, but i would on molten metal 2 .
I hadn't forgotten what they were.
quote:
Then, after noticing you locked 2, i deteted those post saying i wouldn't respond--so as not to direct people to a locked thread.
Yes, I know.
quote:
As for the flood message, i have gotten that message many times and have successfully used the 'fix this problem' link.

While it is possible i used the back button, i had not used it for any of my other flood-controlled responses--so odds are i did not use it then.
Of course, this doesn't tell me that you actually saw that message then. It tells me that you don't remember.
quote:
As for blaming staff, well, like you and your warning I was pissed. As you can see, when you mentioned you would look into it, i apologized in advance if it was a system problem.
According to the logs, it wasn't a problem with this system, as you clearly meant.
quote:
I guess the difference between what we do when we realize we've acted in anger is that I apologize and you warn.
I don't give a rat's ass how holier-than-thou you feel right now, especially since there wasn't a problem on this end, so your apology was meaningless.
quote:
But hey, it's your sandbox...
Yes, I know that, too.
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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