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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 10/31/2006 : 08:04:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Oh, right filth. 400 - 700 *F... that's why my oven melts every time i run the cleaning cycle... what an idiot...
I'm sure all your 'facts' are as accurate.
Gee, ergo, do you thnk there is any difference between the metal in an oven and the structural steel in a building?
Your oven and your oven racks are probably made with stainless steel. Stainless steel is used in applications where corrosion resistance is needed or where the steel needs to maintain it's strength at high temperatures.
You may ask if high temperatures were a possibility (such as fire) why didn't the designers use SS. They didn't use SS for the same reason they didn't use titanium - cost. So what the designers did do was to spray insulation on the steel supports to prevent weakening of the supports from fire. The designers did not expect a 737 flown by psycho losers to hit the building and blow off the insulation.
You know ergo, if you thought just a little or did just a little research you wouldn't appear to be such a moron.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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sts60
Skeptic Friend
141 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 09:49:32 [Permalink]
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The designers did not expect a 737 flown by psycho losers to hit the building
They did anticipate a lost 707 looking for a place to land in bad weather might strike the buildings, which were designed to withstand an approach-speed impact. What happened instead was that two 767-200 series aircraft flown at significantly higher speeds hit them, which did indeed have the effect of blowing off significant amounts of the fireproofing and triggering massive fires.
Maximum gross takeoff weights:
767-200 series 395,000 lb (179,170 kg)
707-320B 336,000 pounds (152,400 kg)
The 767 is somewhat heavier and impacted at higher speeds, so the kinetic energy delivered was quite a bit greater than the design scenario. And the designers didn't really appreciate the fireproofing loss and fire effects. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 10:19:27 [Permalink]
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From: http://www.livingsteel.org/structural-safety-2
“The structural strength of [non-insulated] steel decreases by as much as half at temperatures of 600 degrees Celsius.” (emphasis added)
600*C is over 1,100 *F. That's why ovens don't collapse…
Of course, much higher heat would be necessary to cause the WTC steel to lose its structural integrity as it was insulated. Also, built-in design redundancy estimates suggest a structural strength decrease by 80% would be required before any significant structural integrity was lost. The temperature at which steel loses 80% of it structural integrity is 700* C (or 1,300*F)—according to Thomas Eagar of MIT. And according to NIST, none of the steel reached temperatures of 600*C.
Now some will cite NIST's conclusion that the impact of the plane dislodged insulation. But the temperatures noted above are for un-insulated steel. Plus, there is no evidence that insulation was dislodged by the planes' impact. And besides, UL tests of the insulation show it was extremely difficult to dislodge, even with multiple point-blank shotgun blasts (see NIST appendix).
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No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 10:56:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
So, you are really sticking to "structural steel begins to lose it's structural integerty right around the drawing point: 400 to 700 degrees F, depending on it's composition?"
So, my oven is sturdier than structural steel? And I guess my oven doesn't melt, it just collapses...
That's funny.
I think the number you are looking for is 700*C, which is 1292 F...
quote:
Fahrenheit, ergonoramus. Fahrenheit. At this point, I'd tell you to look it up, but that would be futile; you don't believe in research. I should have, perhaps, added reference, but I'm finished doing your work for you. Fuck you; do your own.
Yes, well I guess it would be humiliating for you to show me a reference like this, given it proves you wrong...
From: http://www.livingsteel.org/structural-safety-2
“The structural strength of [non-insulated] steel decreases by as much as half at temperatures of 600 degrees Celsius.” (emphasis added)
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No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 11:07:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
That's a big "where you are wrong." Just because I admit I find "how it was done" a huge logistical problem, doesn't mean experts in the field would find it a huge logistical problem. After all, I find changing the oil in my car by myself a huge logistical problem--but Jiffy Lube does it in 15 or 20 minutes...
quote:
Ah, but here's where your lack of logic comes in.
We are arguing that planting explosives is a huge logistical problem. Not because it's a problem for us, but because it's a problem for anyone.
Just because you can't change the oil quickly does not prevent you from imagining Jiffy Lube doing it quickly. Given the right tools even I can change the oil in 20 minutes.
But there is still no way in hell anyone could get away planting enough explosives.
Ah, but here is where your lack of evidence and experience comes in. Because you don't really know that "there is still no way in hell anyone could get away planting enough explosives," do you? What you are really saying is that You can't image that there is any way in hell anyone could get away planting enough explosives.
Sheeple used to think there was no way to sail around the Earth; sheeple used to think there was no way for man to fly; sheeple used to think the 4 minute mile was an unbreakable barrier to human beings; sheeple use to think a lot of things were impossible that we now know to be possible.
quote:
The charges needs to be precisely set and shaped against supporting columns in order to be effective. That means stripping the columns bare naked. The size of the charge needs to increase exponentially with the distance from the columns, so placing them on the outside of the insulation is not an option.
How can it "not be an option" when you cite the option in the same paragraph? |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 11:33:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
So, you are really sticking to "structural steel begins to lose it's structural integerty right around the drawing point: 400 to 700 degrees F, depending on it's composition?"
So, my oven is sturdier than structural steel? And I guess my oven doesn't melt, it just collapses...
That's funny.
I think the number you are looking for is 700*C, which is 1292 F...
quote:
Fahrenheit, ergonoramus. Fahrenheit. At this point, I'd tell you to look it up, but that would be futile; you don't believe in research. I should have, perhaps, added reference, but I'm finished doing your work for you. Fuck you; do your own.
Yes, well I guess it would be humiliating for you to show me a reference like this, given it proves you wrong...
From: http://www.livingsteel.org/structural-safety-2
“The structural strength of [non-insulated] steel decreases by as much as half at temperatures of 600 degrees Celsius.” (emphasis added)
And what gives you the silly idea that the structural strength had to decrease by as much as half with all of the tonnage above the strike, plus the damage done by that strike?
The actual temperatures required would be much lower -- a bit hotter than enough to draw the temper.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 12:23:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
How can it "not be an option" when you cite the option in the same paragraph?
Because the huge increase in explosives necessary to do the job from a distance (that is, cutting through supporting beams) would make the explosions clearly visible.
I turn to our resident explosive expert, Filthy:
Filthy, if you have to blast through a support beam, how many times the orininal mass of explosives does it take if you can't place a shape-charge in physical contact, but say 10, 20, or 30 cm from them? (how thick was the fire insulation?) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 12:29:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
So, you are really sticking to "structural steel begins to lose it's structural integerty right around the drawing point: 400 to 700 degrees F, depending on it's composition?"
So, my oven is sturdier than structural steel? And I guess my oven doesn't melt, it just collapses...
That's funny.
I think the number you are looking for is 700*C, which is 1292 F...
quote:
Fahrenheit, ergonoramus. Fahrenheit. At this point, I'd tell you to look it up, but that would be futile; you don't believe in research. I should have, perhaps, added reference, but I'm finished doing your work for you. Fuck you; do your own.
Yes, well I guess it would be humiliating for you to show me a reference like this, given it proves you wrong...
From: http://www.livingsteel.org/structural-safety-2
“The structural strength of [non-insulated] steel decreases by as much as half at temperatures of 600 degrees Celsius.” (emphasis added)
And what gives you the silly idea that the structural strength had to decrease by as much as half with all of the tonnage above the strike, plus the damage done by that strike?
The actual temperatures required would be much lower -- a bit hotter than enough to draw the temper.
It's a moot point, filth.
It is known (at least by some of us) that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C. (see A.E. Cote, ed., Fire Protection Handbook 17th Edition (Quincy, MA: National Fire Protection Association, 1992), pp. 6-62 to 6-70).
But NIST claims that only a few of the exterior and none of the core columns they tested reached 250°C (NIST, Final Report, p.90). (emphasis added) Since the flooring system was attached to these columns--forming a huge, highly conductive heat sink--there is no reason to believe the flooring system reached temperatures much higher than 250°C. |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/31/2006 : 13:29:40 [Permalink]
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Tempering steel.
Now then, where's your "theory?"
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 13:49:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
How can it "not be an option" when you cite the option in the same paragraph?
Because the huge increase in explosives necessary to do the job from a distance (that is, cutting through supporting beams) would make the explosions clearly visible.
I turn to our resident explosive expert, Filthy:
Filthy, if you have to blast through a support beam, how many times the orininal mass of explosives does it take if you can't place a shape-charge in physical contact, but say 10, 20, or 30 cm from them? (how thick was the fire insulation?)
But they were clearly visible. And the insulation on the steel was not even 10cm thick--in one tower it was about 4cm and in the other, about 2cm (according to NIST). |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 14:09:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Tempering steel.
Now then, where's your "theory?"
Why a link for tempering steel, filth? What's its relevance in light of the fact that Kevin Ryan, who was responsible for the testing of the WTC steel when it was certified, testified that samples tested for the towers were certified to withstand a temperature of 2,000*F for 6 hours without failing their rated load characteristics. And that is for the non-insulated steel.
Are you just hoping no one else will actualy read the link and see that it is irrelevant to your belief that steel looses its structural integrity at 400*F? Well I told you I looked at all your links--so your bluff failed.
Can't you just say you make a mistake, filth? |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 15:32:54 [Permalink]
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Here's something you can try: Take a wire coathanger and cut the long piece out of it. Flex it. Then bend it. It will bend in a large bight. Straighten it back out, then, with a cigarette lighter, heat a small portion until it turns blue, then bend it. You will see the diffrence.
The steel columns did not lose all of their integrety, just enough to bend a little easier. I used that link because it gives a good explanation of how ferrous metals respond to heat.
Where's your theory, ergo?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 15:54:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
forming a huge, highly conductive heat sink--
Iron or steel is not highly conductive. Aluminium and copper are.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 16:09:29 [Permalink]
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Hey, wait a minute! Didn't we talk about molten aluminum on the site? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aluminum melts at some 1200 & change F.
That might, if indeed such were observed, give a pretty good, rough approximation of how hot the fires actually were.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 16:32:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Hey, wait a minute! Didn't we talk about molten aluminum on the site? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but aluminum melts at some 1200 & change F.
That might, if indeed such were observed, give a pretty good, rough approximation of how hot the fires actually were.
Unless the molten aluminum (if that's what it was) was melted by thermite or some kind of explosives... |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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What I don't get...
Topic Locked
