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skeptic griggsy
Skeptic Friend
USA
77 Posts |
 Posted - 12/08/2006 : 05:54:08
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Theistic evolution is an oxymoron . " End states are consequences,not foregone conclusions, of beginning states[Weisz] The former is causalism,the latter teleology and they do contradict each other. To obviate this contradiction, theists like Russell Stannard have a two category classification of origins [evolution] or contingency and creation or necessary being, but that begs the question of the second category.Mindless natural selection does its job without a supreme mind behind it To aver such a mind is to make the new Omphalos argument that though it looks like selection is the driving force behind new life forms, God has deceived it so when He is. No, selection needs no outside force to do its job!
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Fr. Griggs rests in his Socratic ignorance and humble naturalism. Logic is the bane of theists.Religion is mythinformation. Reason saves, not a dead Galilean fanatic. |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2006 : 06:03:09 [Permalink]
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Well, while there is no evidence of an outside force aiding natural selection, I have no problem with Theistic Evolution as a belief. There are far bigger fish to fry in my book. So if they want to try and fit good science into their theoligy that is fine, why should we care what they believe?
Edit: Welcome to SFN skeptic griggsy |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
| Edited by - Paulos23 on 12/08/2006 06:05:22 |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2006 : 11:40:56 [Permalink]
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Welcome skeptic griggsy!
While in principle, and true to form, you are absolutely right when you speak of the christians, muslims, etc. Because these religions teach an alternative to evolution within their doctirine. In the same way, it is impossible to be a Christian* and not be a bigot.
*However, the word Christian has come to mean many things, as well as, all of the other words, and the other religious titles. It cannot really be known much about a person and their beliefs from any such titles.
Therefore, if one calls himself a Christian and an evolutionist we know more about him from the title evolutionist than creationist, but even then not enough to fill a thimble.
Also, theist simply means one who believes in god(s). Therefore, one can believe in a god that started the big bang and stepped out never to interfere again. Still a theist perspective but fully allows all of the data of science ever collected. Such theism of course serves no one and nothing thus there is no need for it. It is my opinion, that no theism is needed for anything and that nothing can be derived from theist views, quite the opposite.
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Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
 Posted - 12/08/2006 : 21:49:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
While in principle, and true to form, you are absolutely right when you speak of the christians, muslims, etc. Because these religions teach an alternative to evolution within their doctirine. In the same way, it is impossible to be a Christian* and not be a bigot.
*However, the word Christian has come to mean many things, as well as, all of the other words, and the other religious titles. It cannot really be known much about a person and their beliefs from any such titles.
You state that there are multiple meanings behind "Christian", but you also state one can not be a Christian and not a bigot. Even a fundamentalist Christian may not be a bigot. There are fundamentalists who believe that the Bible is true in every literal sense, but they also acknowledge that this is a belief and not knowledge. How can you describe someone like this as a bigot? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 12/08/2006 21:49:45 |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2006 : 22:47:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky:
You state that there are multiple meanings behind "Christian", but you also state one can not be a Christian and not a bigot.
Sorry, I meant that one cannot rationally believe that the bible is inspired by god and infallible without being a bigot. I meant that one cannot be a "Christian," as in believe all of the things that one should logically believe based on the meaning of Christian, without being a bigot. But also the word Christian in common use can mean literally anything and any mix of any of the beliefs espoused in the bible. This is a good illustration of exactly the type of word confusion I was getting at. One cannot tell what a person means when he says he is a Christian, he can simply mean he belive in Jesus' existance but none of the bible teachings or all of them or anywhere in between. In one national survey it was reported that some people marked that they believed in Jesus but not a personal god. Logically, this is an inconsistency but not surprising to me. That is all that I meant.
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Even a fundamentalist Christian may not be a bigot. There are fundamentalists who believe that the Bible is true in every literal sense, but they also acknowledge that this is a belief and not knowledge. How can you describe someone like this as a bigot?
Well, I am not sure what you mean. But if one believes that the bible is right literal or otherwise then one must believe also in lots of crazy intolerences. Women, homosexuals, people of other faiths and excetra are discriminated against within the Christian and Jewish Bible. Since a bigot means. Then they fit this definition.
What do you mean belief not knowledge? There is no difference between what you know to be true and what you believe to be true. Not in practice anyway. Believe should be replace with think. That is more accurate. See definition one. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 12/08/2006 22:49:48 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2006 : 16:51:40 [Permalink]
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Yes and one can think that black people are inferior but pretend it is not true for the sake of saving appearances. They are still bigots. Bigot has a definition, and although no one wants to be a bigot and tries to rationalize it away, that does not change the fact. If Hitler hated the Jews in private would he have been less of a bigot?
Also, when one says he believes that homosexuality (a lifestyle) is wrong but does not force it onto others, he is still intolerent of that lifestyle. Although, I would not use such a harsh term in that case. I meant that it is inconsistent to be a Christian, one who by definition is supposed to evangelize and force their doctrine onto the other people and by definition must be intolerent of certain lifestyles and peoples, to not be a bigot. Not that all who may call themselves christians are bigots. That is a reverse reading of my syllogism.
Christianity means being a bigot
All who are Christians by the definition are thus bigots
However, one may call oneself a christian without meaning the things associated with Christianity,
In which case he may not be a bigot, but is also not a Christian by the definition of Christian.
If you can prove that the bible does not require people to be bigots and that the definition of Christian (proper) does not automatically mean belief in the bible then you may have a point, otherwise these definitions fit. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2006 : 01:27:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yes and one can think that black people are inferior but pretend it is not true for the sake of saving appearances.
Can you honestly say you read my post and this is what you got out of it? I am not talking about someone pretending it isn't true, whether or not it be for the sake of saving appearances. And I am not making a hypothetical person up, this person happens to be one of my closest friends.
quote:
Also, when one says he believes that homosexuality (a lifestyle) is wrong but does not force it onto others, he is still intolerent of that lifestyle.
Bullshit. If one allows others to live their lives with all freedoms and rights that are granted to an individual, how can you ever say they are intolerant? Hell, I personally think that the homosexual life style is wrong for myself. Is this me being intolerant?
quote:
I meant that it is inconsistent to be a Christian, one who by definition is supposed to evangelize and force their doctrine onto the other people and by definition must be intolerent of certain lifestyles and peoples, to not be a bigot.
That is one type of Christian, that is one interpretation of the Bible. I'm sorry if every Christian you have met acted in such a way, but it is certainly not the case for all Christians.
quote:
Christianity means being a bigot
All who are Christians by the definition are thus bigots
However, one may call oneself a christian without meaning the things associated with Christianity,
In which case he may not be a bigot, but is also not a Christian by the definition of Christian.
Could not come up with a more clear example of the Not A True Scotsman fallacy.
To call one who believes that Jesus died for their sins not a Christian because the evangelicals of this country, the loudest voice, are bigots is simply absurd. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 12/10/2006 01:29:11 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 18:27:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
While in principle, and true to form, you are absolutely right when you speak of the christians, muslims, etc. Because these religions teach an alternative to evolution within their doctirine. In the same way, it is impossible to be a Christian* and not be a bigot.
That sounds very much like projection. It also sounds fairly ignorant. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
| Edited by - ConsequentAtheist on 12/11/2006 18:28:47 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 18:36:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by skeptic griggsy
Theistic evolution is an oxymoron.
"Theistic evolution" is a meaningless category, as is "atheistic evolution". |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 19:03:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Can you honestly say you read my post and this is what you got out of it? I am not talking about someone pretending it isn't true, whether or not it be for the sake of saving appearances. And I am not making a hypothetical person up, this person happens to be one of my closest friends.
That is not what I meant to imply. I am simply saying that Christianity logically requires bigotry. Since Christ is the son of god (god on earth, or even literally god) and he supported the OT, whose god is (or is Jesus) a bigot. And Christian literally means "little christ" or more accurately it is one who is like christ. The more like christ (who is god, or supports god's beliefs) the more of a bigot you must be.
Which is not to say that your friend is a bigot, or that he doesn't call himself a christian. It means he is either not a christian, or not a bigot. He cannot be a christian (really) and not be a bigot. If you can show me evidence that disproves my syllogism then I will conceed.
quote:
Bullshit. If one allows others to live their lives with all freedoms and rights that are granted to an individual, how can you ever say they are intolerant? Hell, I personally think that the homosexual life style is wrong for myself. Is this me being intolerant?
Did I say "for oneself" or wrong period. Lets look at murder. Is murder wrong? Yes? Well do you fly around like a caped crusader and stop crime? No? Well then are you tolerent of murder?
If you think that other races or women are inferior, your prejudice. It doesn't matter if you don't try and convert others.
I have already conceeded that one can all themselves a christian not belief half of the bullshit in the bible. That is not the question. It is whether or not one should be a bigot if one is a Christian by definition. The two terms are related and can't be seperated or can they? If so show me the evidence.
quote:
That is one type of Christian, that is one interpretation of the Bible. I'm sorry if every Christian you have met acted in such a way, but it is certainly not the case for all Christians.
No that is the definition of Christian (see above). And it cannot be misinterpreted any more than the phrase.
I hate Canadians.
Can you make that mean anything else besides the obvious?
quote:
Could not come up with a more clear example of the Not A True Scotsman fallacy.
To call one who believes that Jesus died for their sins not a Christian because the evangelicals of this country, the loudest voice, are bigots is simply absurd.
No I don't care if no one who called themselve a christian believed a single word written in the bible. It is a matter of definition. It is not a matter of popularity.
The not a true scottmans fallicy does not apply because sugar and pooridge are not in the definition of being a Scotsman.
If all Scottsman are from Scotland
And I am not from Scotland
I am not a Scotsman, even If I love Scotland and have the Scotland T-shirt
If you want to counter my argument you need to attack my definition rather than presenting a fallicy that doesn't apply.
Show me scripturally how one can be a Christian - which means little christ, one who tries to mimic christ, can do so without being a bigot.
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Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 19:06:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
While in principle, and true to form, you are absolutely right when you speak of the christians, muslims, etc. Because these religions teach an alternative to evolution within their doctirine. In the same way, it is impossible to be a Christian* and not be a bigot.
That sounds very much like projection. It also sounds fairly ignorant.
Explain. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 19:07:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Show me scripturally how one can be a Christian - which means little christ, ...
Where do you get this nonsense? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 20:25:23 [Permalink]
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First try a search engine. Second try the library. The word Christian may have first been used as a mockery meaning "little christ" or simply like christ, or christ mimic. It is not completely clear and not that important. Third try the bible Romans and Collosians.
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Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 12/11/2006 20:26:02 |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 20:28:37 [Permalink]
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| Still waiting on your explanation, ConsequentAtheist. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 21:14:56 [Permalink]
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If someone posts again, please provide me with your definition of a Christian and back it up scripturally. In my second post, I clearly stated that the definition of Christian I was calling a bigot was one who believed the bible was inspired by and the word of God. If you are arguing under another definition, please explain.
Edited for clarity. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 12/11/2006 21:18:40 |
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Theistic evolution
