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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

That is weird.
In Sweden, a driving license works as a national ID.
There is also a special National ID which works in most Western Europe thanks to the Schengen Agreement. With it, I won't need a Passport when I travel to countries like Germany, France, and Spain.

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That is really odd. That means any citizen has an ID only worth in the state that emitted it, or am I confusing things? Because if that's the case, in Brazil all documents identifying someone, are worth everywhere in the country.

Or, are people trying to establish a single form of identification? I'm hoping the latter, because otherwise, it seems quite pointless a discussion to me...

(and yes, I failed to open the links... I will when I have time, promise.)

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Originally posted by Kil

Maybe instead of trying to explain why I think a national ID it's a bad idea, someone should explain to me why it's a good idea? After all, most of us already carry or have many forms of ID that we use selectively and voluntarily depending on the situation. And I'm not even including our social security numbers, which is already in the national database.

Besides the expense that comes with yet another layer of bureaucracy, how would the card make our country more secure?

Forget possible abuses. Just tell me why we need it?

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Originally posted by beskeptigal

Bet Brazil and Sweden's food retailers haven't started tracking people's purchases by electronic ID card yet. Here if you don't want to be tracked you pay more for food.

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Originally posted by JohnOAS
I don't think anyone needs it. And if you can't replace at least a couple of pre-exisiting form of ID with it, then you're not really doing anyone any favours.

In order to improve security, there are 2 main issues:
1. How easy it is to get one, such as requiring a sufficient level of other identification. If it's trivialy easy to get a new (fake) universal ID, it's obviously a bad thing.
2. How easy is it to fake one? Many current forms of ID are trivially easy to forge. There are a variety of technologies which make casual forging difficult. The serious crooks will always find a way of course.

Having a (more) "universal" standard may also make it easier to educate people as to how to properly asess an ID,, without having to be familiar with X different versions from Y different states.

I haven't lost much sleep over the RFID tag issue yet, but I suspect that stocks in companies producing faraday wallets may not be a bad investment.

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Originally posted by Siberia
Nope, and I doubt many people would care if they did. We aren't very paranoid about privacy over here in Brazil, at least, not that I know of.

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RFID is used mainly in large warehouses and industrial parks over here.

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Originally posted by Cuneiformist

...the purpose for the national ID is ostensibly to fight terrorism.

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Originally posted by CuneiformistBut here's the thing, John-- the purpose for the national ID is ostensibly to fight terrorism. As though a huge problem were terrorists sneaking into this country and getting fake IDs. But clearly that's not the case. I think that BSG is probably onto something in that that national ID thing is in part a front to make Congress look like it's doing something real when it's really just posturing, but who knows.

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# After Long Delay, Homeland Security Department Issues Regulations for Flawed National ID Plan. More than two years after Congress rushed through passage of the REAL ID Act (pdf), the Department of Homeland Security announced today proposed regulations (pdf) that would turn the state driver's license into a national identity card. The estimated cost of the plan exceeds $11 billion and the national ID system will increase security risks (pdf) as well as the threats to personal privacy. Proposals to repeal Real ID have been adopted in the states and introduced in Congress. (Mar. 1)

# DHS Envisions REAL ID Used for 'Whole Host of Other Purposes.' In a speech on Monday, DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff said the REAL ID Act (pdf) licenses might "do double-duty or triple-duty." These REAL ID cards would "be used for a whole host of other purposes where you now have to carry different identification." Security expert Bruce Schneier, EPIC (pdf) and others have explained that it is decreases security to have one ID card for many purposes, as there will be a substantial amount of harm when the card is compromised. Using a national ID card would be as if you used one key to open your house, your car, your safe deposit box, your office, and more. This envisions state driver's licenses as national ID cards, which are prohibited. The Homeland Security Act of 2002 explicitly said, "Nothing in this Act shall be construed to authorize the development of a national identification system or card." (Feb. 16)

# EPIC Warns Maryland Senate of REAL ID's Security Risks. At a public hearing of the Maryland Senate, EPIC's Melissa Ngo explained (pdf) that the privacy and security risks of the REAL ID Act remain unresolved. She also pointed to the adverse impact on victims of domestic violence. The federal legislation would create a national database with the personal data of 245 million license and state ID cardholders, yet there is still no plan for adequate privacy and security safeguards. This would leave sensitive data at risk for identity theft, misuse or abuse. EPIC expressed support for a Maryland bill calling for repeal of the REAL ID Act. (Feb. 15)
Minimum document requirements, §202(b):

"To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to a person by the State:

(1) The person's full legal name.

(2) The person's date of birth.

(3) The person's gender.

(4) The person's driver's license or identification card number.

(5) A digital photograph of the person.

(6) The person's address of principle residence.

(7) The person's signature.

(8) Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.

(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements."

EPIC analysis:

We strongly advise deleting the §202(b)(6) requirement of displaying the person's address of principal residence on the card. This has significant implications for domestic violence victims and the homeless. We suggest requiring the acceptance of alternate addresses, such as P.O. boxes, in order to protect the privacy of individuals.

There is also the risk that the Department of Homeland Security guidelines will, under the §202(b)(9) requirement of "common machine-readable technology," mandate that the states must include radio frequency identification (RFID) technology in DL/ID. This wireless technology has significant security risks, including those of surreptitious gathering of personal data by unauthorized individuals and clandestine tracking of cardholders. EPIC has consistently recommended the use of contact technology, such as the stripes on the backs of credit cards, in identification documents. Contact cards are more secure; they do not contain the risk of data theft through wireless transmission and allow cardholders to have control over who sees their data. See EPIC's RFID page for more information on the dangers of using RFID in identification documents.

As the DMVs must verify name, date of birth, Social Security number, place of residence and citizenship status, "with the issuing agency," this creates an incredible bureaucracy. The DMVs must all have secure access to state and federal databases with this information. These databases have been found to have inaccurate or incomplete information, which would significantly affect DL/ID applicants. Imagine the delays, as state DMV workers will be forced to become federal immigration officers, verifying the citizenship status of applicants. And there is question of whether citizens or legal permanent residents can find the documentation required. Section 202(c)(3)(B) forbids the acceptance of "any foreign document, other than an official passport, to satisfy a requirement of paragraph (1) or (2)." There are also discrimination concerns, as those who look or sound "foreign" would be targeted. The National Conference of State Legislatures has said, "The Real ID Act would cause chaos and backlogs in thousands of state offices across the country, making the nation less secure."

The requirements to maintain paper copies or digital images of these important identity documents for seven to 10 years, combined with the requirement to "provide electronic access to all other States to information contained in the motor vehicle database of the State" will make this data a tempting target for identity thieves. The 50 state (plus the District of Columbia) databases would become on large database. And one presumes that each DMV would have access to these databases at the very least to confirm that the applicant does not have a REAL ID license or ID card in another state. If a criminal could break the security of any one of the tens of thousands of entrance points, then the criminal would have access to the personal data, including Social Security numbers, of every single person in the United State with a REAL ID license or ID card. This would put hundreds of millions of people at risk for identity theft.

The requirement for non-REAL ID-compliant DL/ID to have explicit "invalid for federal purposes" designations, turns this "voluntary" card into a mandatory national ID card. Anyone with a non-REAL ID-compliant card would be instantly suspicious. Compliant cards would be necessary for federal purposes such as entering courthouses, air travel or receiving federal benefits, such as Medicaid or Social Security. It would be easy for insurance companies, credit card companies, even video stores, to demand a REAL ID-compliant DL/ID in order to receive services. Significant delay, complication and possibly harassment or discrimination would fall upon those without a REAL ID license or ID card.

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