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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 04/16/2007 : 09:51:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
And why do think that is? The seeming desire for men to do evil that is. We seem attracted to it like a junebug to a porch light. Human history has been littered with men in positions of great power, who have used this power for evil. But yet it is not even limited to men of power, even the common layman is drawn to it, as you yourself have said.
Because evil, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, and by this time you should know better than to get me started on something like this.
What exactly is evil, and who makes that decision? Was Hitler evil? No doubt we all can agree on that one. Was Gandi evil? I have it on the authority of one of our local preachers that indeed he was. Am I evil for disbelieving in any sort of deity along with contributing nothing to the advancement of any belief system beyond derision? Sure, why not?
Is George W. Bush evil? To my beholding eye he certainly is, along with most of the rest of his wretched administration. Others disagree -- 30 & some-odd %, if what I've read is up to date, and I'll bet he'll never be made responsible for his deeds, and that too is evil.
Are the big oil conglomerates who are currently sucking our blood at the gas pumps evil? Betcherass! As the price of fuel rises, so does the cost of everything else including the staples necessary for our very existence.
Another view of the question: evil is cool. Too often, we puff ourselves up by demonstrating, or attempting to demonstrate, what a badass we are. This might be considered as ridiculous evil, and also dangerous evil because we might run into a real badass who can show us what true evil really is.
Then, of course, we have supernatural evil -- demons, devils, angels, and the like. They scare the worst of the believers into being at least civil (usually) in their dealings with the rest of us, but beyond that, only make for good stories. But unfortunately some of the believers believe too well, and that is how the history of mankind became filled with a sanguine evil that continues to this day -- I give you the Sunni/Shiia evilidiotcy currently going on in Iraq to ponder.
Evil is as evil does, my friend, and, like it or not, it makes the world go 'round.
Sorry to take the thread off topic. Maybe we can discuss this in the near future as you had a interesting responce. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/16/2007 : 12:15:13 [Permalink]
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Topic schmopic, who cares? Happens all the time around here.
And in spite of the facts of the matter, or any matter for that matter, history too, is in the eyes of the beholder. I wonder what the books, a couple of centuries or so down the road, will have to say about the climate change controversity, that should be no controversy at all. Assuming that, y'know, history is still important to people in their particular situation.
I really don't care how much we are adding to the problem. What I care about is that we stop adding to it -- which ain't likely happen, given our track record. And there's some more evil to contemplate: the short-term, self-serving stupidity of our species when we need to serve ourselves in the long term. It brings to question whether sapience is really much value in a species' evolutionary survival.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 13:48:11 [Permalink]
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Billscott said:
quote:
The Chinese are not dumb, plus they seem to have plenty of their own coal. I think they would have figured it out eventually.
They would have used the cheapest, which is what they have done. My point was that if we had been eying more green power solutions for the last 40 years, we very well could have a greener (and cheaper) source than coal.
But yes, China has a massive coal reserve. They are gonna burn the stuff for a long time unless a better, cost effective solution shows up.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 15:27:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Billscott said:
quote:
The Chinese are not dumb, plus they seem to have plenty of their own coal. I think they would have figured it out eventually.
They would have used the cheapest, which is what they have done. My point was that if we had been eying more green power solutions for the last 40 years, we very well could have a greener (and cheaper) source than coal.
But yes, China has a massive coal reserve. They are gonna burn the stuff for a long time unless a better, cost effective solution shows up.
My fear is that it is going to be a serious challange to produce green power more co$t effective then coal, which they have plenty of, and then convience them to give up on the coal proliferation, which will be in full swing by the time we have anything to offer them at the rate affordable green power is coming along. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 18:06:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
How do you hide the URL behind the text of your choice? I have not been able to that yet. Thanks.
Follow this link to the archives of the Q&A forum....
It's a post that explains how to 'hide' the link.
I hope it's succint, but clear enough.
Otherwise, let me know, and I'll write up a new one. This sticky wasn't supposed to end up in the archives... 
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 19:14:43 [Permalink]
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Billscott said:
quote:
My fear is that it is going to be a serious challange to produce green power more co$t effective then coal, which they have plenty of, and then convience them to give up on the coal proliferation, which will be in full swing by the time we have anything to offer them at the rate affordable green power is coming along.
Well, the Chinese themselves have developed a wind turbine that can generate power at lower windspeeds than conventional wind turbines.
Maglev wind turbine.
The main issue with wind power in China appears to be that there are very few Chinese companies that make wind turbines. This means that the tech support and parts have to be imported, adding to the cost.
As with the rest of the world, the initial cost of building wind farms, and the associated cost of running them, is still a barrier.
Kinda like plasma TVs. 15 years ago they cost $15k for a 42in TV. Now you can buy a 50in plasma TV for $2000.
As more people adopt the tech, the price will fall.
And I still contend that we common folk are the ONLY people who have the power to force change. We can have green enrgy, but only if we insist on it from our elected officials.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2007 : 07:12:28 [Permalink]
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And then there's the aspect of this that nobody seems to want to talk about: overpopulation
 Oh God, not that!
quote:
Areas of high population densities, calculated in 1994.Overpopulation is the condition of any organism's numbers exceeding the carrying capacity of its ecological niche. In common parlance, the term usually refers to the relationship between the human population and its environment, the Earth.
Overpopulation is not simply a function of the size or density of the population, but rather the number of individuals compared to the resources (for example, food production or water resources) needed for survival or well-being. Overpopulation can be determined using the ratio of population to available resources. If a given environment has a population of ten, but there is food or drinking water enough for only nine, then that environment is overpopulated; if the population is 100 individuals but there is food, shelter or water enough for 200, then it is not. Overpopulation can result from an increase in births, a decline in mortality rates due to medical advances, from an increase in immigration, a decrease in emigration, or from an unsustainable use and depletion of resources. It is possible for very sparsely-populated areas to be "overpopulated", as the area in question may have a very meager or non-existent capability to sustain human life (e.g. the middle of the Sahara desert or Antarctica).
The world's population increases have slowed a lot in recent years; in industrialized countries, anyway, but it is not static. As the environment warms, less land will be arable and deforestation will increase to make farm land. And there is a question of potable water: will there be sufficient and who would control it? If you think you're getting screwed over gasoline, wait until they privatize water supplies, including the aquifers.
And speaking of water, the warmer it gets, the more the fishing's gonna suck.
Not to mention the fact that we are slowly losing our #1 crop pollinator, the Italian honey bee. There's lots of conjecture as to the cause, but no hard science on it yet. The cell phone radiation hypotheses looks pretty good but it's not yet established. Besides, we'd a lot rather watch our children starve than give up shooting the shit at 70 mph, wouldn't we? (I take a smug satisfaction in that I don't have a cell and entertain no ambitions to acquire one. As far as I'm concerned, they're an unnecessary menace to navigation.)
Isn't this fun? 
So, there are a lot more factors involved than just warming, and I'm not at all sure that we even know what many of them are.
As I stated before, "We're fucked." I don't think we need to be fucked over this, but we'll see to it that we are. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/17/2007 07:15:48 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 07:57:42 [Permalink]
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| And yesterday there was on the news a new method for turning animal and vegetal fat into biodiesel. Pretty cool, pity I have no english sources of it. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 14:19:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
And yesterday there was on the news a new method for turning animal and vegetal fat into biodiesel. Pretty cool, pity I have no english sources of it.
That would seem to be a REALLY bad way of getting our fuel. It is already doubtful that growing crops for the purpose is going to have any significant effect, so adding another trophic level to the mix (and losing about 90% of the energy in the process) would, at a first glance, seem like madness. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 14:21:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
And yesterday there was on the news a new method for turning animal and vegetal fat into biodiesel. Pretty cool, pity I have no english sources of it.
There's a processing plant in Finland that are experimenting with this also. Last time I checked, they planning of taking care of slaughter house waste to "fuel" their plant. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 14:40:49 [Permalink]
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| There's a "reforming" plant now right next to a turkey processing factory here in the 'States. All of the turkey by-products are trucked over and turned into various grades of fuels. If I remember correctly, their process can turn just about anything that was once organic into hydrocarbons. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 14:51:57 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
quote:
There's a "reforming" plant now right next to a turkey processing factory here in the 'States. All of the turkey by-products are trucked over and turned into various grades of fuels. If I remember correctly, their process can turn just about anything that was once organic into hydrocarbons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conversion_process
Tires, trees, turkey guts, and all that. Turns it into usable fuel.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 14:59:59 [Permalink]
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Hawks said:
quote:
It is already doubtful that growing crops for the purpose is going to have any significant effect,
There is a good bit of promise in this area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulosic_ethanol
Implemented on a large scale this could relieve a significant % of US dependence on foriegn oil, and has a much much lower net CO2 release.
My idea is to utilize the shallow seas on the US gulf coast to grow large, contained seaweed farms. Grow the stuff in large cages that can be elevated out of the water to dry it for shipping. The number of acres you could farm would be huge.
The initial startup might be expensive, but if you can get enough dry biomass out of each acre to be profitable....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 15:00:42 [Permalink]
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| That's the one, Dude, and it seems to have proven the concept. Someone needs to take the next step and build a facility next to a landfill, and just start siphoning the trash out. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 15:09:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
If I remember correctly, their process can turn just about anything that was once organic into hydrocarbons.
Imagine how this will affect the way businesses market themselves...
"Bert's Liposuction Clinic--a green facility!"
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Political hacks water down global warming report
