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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 16:09:05 [Permalink]
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Rube, how do you know Gore is, "just doing this to re vamp his career as he did after the 1988 presidential campaign"? I'm skeptical of your ability to read minds.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 04/10/2007 : 16:34:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Rube, how do you know Gore is, "just doing this to re vamp his career as he did after the 1988 presidential campaign"? I'm skeptical of your ability to read minds.
Especially since he was advised, on political grounds, not to touch the subject. When he decided to get involved in the issue, practically nobody cared about it. That he has defied political conventional wisdom and has made people care is to his credit. Calling Gore some kind of opportunist on this issue is total nonsense. He got on the issue before there was any political benefit to do so, and has personally fought an uphill battle and transformed public opinion about MMGW. If Gore now can make political hay with the issue, well, good for him!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 17:42:58 [Permalink]
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rubicon95 said:
quote:
It's going to die down when Bush is gone because this hype is all politics. I want to be wrong on this but for close to 20 years this has been spouted, what has our gov't done.....nothing.
So Dude, spare me that "least sane" comment. You're living in dream world or an idealist if you think this will last after the 2008 election.
Ya know, I used to joke about how conservatives think global warming is a liberal conspiracy. Never for a second did I ever think anyone was stupid enough to actually believe something like that.
I apologize, and stand corrected.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 04/10/2007 : 17:43:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Rubicon95:
In the US, everything is politicized. MMGW is being hyped not because we are in imminent danger, nor that our leaders are gravely concerned about the environment. It gets press because Bush is opposed to it.
You know, you can say this until you are blue in the face and it still won't be true.
There is a world wide consensus of climate scientists, stay with me here, not just American politicians, who say the time to act is now!!!
Let's review shall we?
The consensus of scientists all over the planet are in agreement that humans are a cause of global warming. Perhaps not the only cause, but a very big cause of a developing crisis.
That this issue has been politicized in US stinks. But the fact that the issue has been politicized here does not make the threat less real!!!
If you want to do a bit of research, go look for who exactly politicized what the scientists were saying about the threat of global warming in the first place. (Hint. It just may have been the party that actually started the conservation movement all those years ago…)
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 17:49:49 [Permalink]
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Oh, and the reason our government has done "nothing" about global warming for the last 20 years is because it has been controlled by the deniers. A republican president from 1980 to 1992, a republican house from 19944-1996, a republican senate and house from 1996-2000, and a republican house, senate, and president from 2000-2007. And a repiblican president from now til 2009.
Even today a republican, now the minority, can't get a seat on the committee unless they publicly deny global warming is real.
It is kinda hard to take action on a topic that the government denies even exists.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 06:46:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
I expect them to rely on smoke and mirrors in an attempt to reframe the debate.
That's rich coming out of this forum.
quote:
I expect them to compare the people who can least afford to make truly significant changes to those companies that make the products that could be much more energy efficient, and affordable, as though their problems are comparable, as justification for giving heavy CO2 polluters, and governments that protect them by having the least strict policies on pollution a pass.
You should be on the China attack then. Their MMGW polices suck, even compared to the US. And if not mistaken, I believe they are the biggest manufacture of the compact fluorescent light bulb. I can just see the debrise roaring out of their smoke stacks and the mercury runing down into the nearby river as they churn out compact after compact.
For starters these wacky bulbs are filled with mercury so when your child knocks over the lamp on the night stand and it shatters they will be exposed to mercury possibly requiring a hazardous cleanup unit to come to your home. Secondly as these bulbs burn out and are thrown away the mercury contained inside of them will leach into the soils in landfills and eventually into our water supply!! With some 4 billion light sockets in the U.S alone this poses a seriuos enviromental problem. Next the biggest nation to manufacture these polluting bulbs is China who has not and will not sign onto the outrages kyoto protocol. (cant call them stupid) Where does china get its energy you may ask? Well they build 1 new coal powered plant per week. So the energy to run and make these bulbs will come from the construction of new coal powered plants. Not to mention a massive lay off of americans who presently work in the incandesent light bulb industry!!
http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4972
quote:
I expect them to tell me that I shouldn't drive to work in my (as energy efficient a vehicle I could find) truck, and give a pass to the manufacturing end of said truck as though the sacrifice for change (retooling) is comparable. Smoke and mirrors…
Why did you not even give flying private a thought in regards to MMGW? Why would you expect the deniers to give it a thought if you don't?
quote:
(And, now that I have mentioned that I drive a truck, I expect to be attacked for that even though I provide an essential service and there is no other vehicle appropriate for what I do.)
What good are the services you do provide if the planet is on the verge of being inhabitable? Give up the truck, kil, and show all how much you are for the cause. If you don't then who will?
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I expect them to dig up one or two scientists who don't agree with the data or the interpretation of the data by the consensus of the world's scientific experts on climate.
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 04/11/2007 07:29:06 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 06:54:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
quote:
This is a moronic statement. If I were to give up my car and house - hell, why not just shoot myself in the head;
So anyone on this planet without a small house in the city or a car should just shoot themselves for the pitiful existence that they are in? Let's see, on top of "do as I say not as I do" activists your a liberal elitist as well. Just great.
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My goal is for the whole of society to make some practical and efficient changes to reverse the effects of global warming.
What are you doing to acomplish this?
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My goal is not to prove to you that I believe that global warming is real.
Good, because I will never be convinced by your actions that you yourself take this seriously.
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Bill, who the hell are you arguing with?
A liberal elitist. Oh, and cry us a river for going from your big house in the suburbs to your little house in the city and your automobile commute. We all feel for you and your great sacrifice to the cause of anti-MMGW. FYI, moving out of mom and dad's is usually a reality bite to most. So looking at it as a sacrifice for MMGW is the optimistic way of looking at your situation. Good job.
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Who the hell here has said that the solution to global warming is everybody making extreme sacrifices? Al Gore doesn't even advocate that.
He might not have said it was the solution, but he said it was part of it.
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Most activists who are working to reverse global warming are proposing a combination of efforts in which sacrifice is actually a minor player.
No sacrifice for them, I am sure.
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Most are proposing some basic structural changes to how American society is run. These changes proposed would not reduce peoples' quality of life.
Interesting. Can you give me some examples.
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In short, Bill, your whole debate with me is nothing but a strawman - you're debating with your imaginary friend who happens to also be named marf.
Amazing. My imaginary friend has been able to type and respond and the whole nine yards.
quote:
Well of course! You should quit whatever it is you do now, live in a cardboard box, and work at Walmart. You would if you really believed that global warming was real! Edited to add: Because if everyone who believes in global warming goes broke, homeless, sick, or dies, that will help reverse global warming, right?
What good is being rich, having a nice house, being healthy and alive if the planet you live on in now inhabitable?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 07:38:09 [Permalink]
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So your latest strawman is that the planet will be “inhabitable”. (By the way, the word you want is “uninhabitable”. Get a dictionary!)
It's a strawman because no one is saying that the earth will be uninhabitable. You made that up. Its origin on this forum is from you Bill and only from you. See, that is how the strawman logical fallacy works Bill. You make something up then proceed to argue against it. In this case, (through the use of sarcasm I hope) you are attempting to show how silly we are for not sacrificing our whole way of life because you are saying that we are saying that the world will soon be uninhabitable. Only we aren't saying that.
Thanks for using the strawman fallacy. It gave me a chance to describe that breach of logic, and how it works to our lurkers. And hey, perhaps you learned a little something Bill since you probably never looked at the many links offered you on logical fallacies.
But in the immortal words of Steve Martin in his series of sketches on SNL playing someone who was on the verge of learning something new and important. "Naaaaaaaa..."
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 08:33:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Me:
I expect them to rely on smoke and mirrors in an attempt to reframe the debate.
quote:
Bill Scott:
That's rich coming out of this forum.
See my last post on Bill's use of logical fallacy.
Okay Bill, your turn. Show us how we have attempted to mask our arguments by use of trickery, as you have done.
And while you're at it, what about those sources that you requested and I provided? Are you hoping I will forget about that?
quote:
Bill Scott:
You should be on the China attack then. Their MMGW polices suck, even compared to the US.
We are. The US still leads, as I understand it. But China is of great concern to us.
As for the bulbs, we need to dispose of them properly. Have you been reading this thread?
quote:
Bill Scott:
Why did you not even give flying private a thought in regards to MMGW? Why would you expect the deniers to give it a thought if you don't?
I have already responded to that. And what is more, I was honest about it, which is more then I can say for you and your bringing it up over and over again…
quote:
Bill Scott:
What good are the services you do provide if the planet is on the verge of being [sic] inhabitable?
See my above post on this strawman logical fallacy.
quote:
Bill Scott:
You would not even reconsider if I had 50 or 100. Your words indicate that your mind is already made up, even if your actions do not.
So far you've dug up two of them. One had a political agenda and you didn't understand what the other one was saying…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 10:12:59 [Permalink]
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Bill Scott wrote: quote:
So anyone on this planet without a small house in the city or a car should just shoot themselves for the pitiful existence that they are in? Let's see, on top of "do as I say not as I do" activists your a liberal elitist as well. Just great.
I don't know off hand what the name for this kind of illogic is, but I'll try to explain in laymen's terms. When I wrote: “-hell, why don't I just shoot myself in the head?”, I was pointing out that if I was dead I would not be contributing at all to global warming. YOU twisted that to mean that if I were poor that I might as well be dead.
If we take suicide as one extreme and bad idea for how individuals can help stop global warming, we can then see clearly that there needs to be a balance between personal sacrifices and practical changes in socio-economic structure of our society that makes us more efficient in our uses of natural resources. As I, personally stand right now, most of the major contributions I make to global warming are directly related to the structure of the economy in my society. If there were a train to Quakertown (which there was until the 90's) I would ride it to work, but there isn't. So instead of quitting my job right now and making myself really poor, stressed out, and of little use to anyone, I am looking for a different job in the city and I write letters and go to town meetings about beefing up the public transit. That is, IMO, good enough (with regards to travel's impact on global warming) on my singular role to reduce global warming.
quote:
What are you doing to acomplish this?
In addition to looking for a job closer to where I live and writing letters, I recycle, I use the lightbulbs that Dude mentioned, I'm planning to buy a hybrid when my care dies, we have lots of fans for the summer opposed to central AC, I buy produce locally and have reduced my trips to the grocery store to every 2-3 weeks instead of every week. I don't earn enough money to do anything major, so my efforts are going to be lots of small things and cultivating a general mentality for conservation.
You think I need to do more – things that would destroy most of my enjoyment of life. If I have to do that to “prove” that I believe in global warming, why not just shoot myself? Nothing will reduce my contributions to global warming more than my simply not existing anymore, so why not tell me to kill myself, Bill? Obviously lines must be drawn, and just because I don't draw my line where you think I should, hardly means that I'm a hypocrite.
Like I said before (and you have ignored), it would be foolish for everyone who wants to reduce global warming to become poor and powerless. Doing that would guarantee that carbon emissions will NOT be reduced (since all the people who don't care will be richer and more powerful).
Bill, you are talking as if economically devastating sacrifices on the part of individuals are all that should be done to stop global warming. That analysis and approach is just plain stupid.
Bill called me: quote:
A liberal elitist.
LOL! I love shit like this.
e•lit•ism - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-lee-tiz-uh m, ey-lee-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. practice of or belief in rule by an elite.
2. consciousness of or pride in belonging to a select or f |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/11/2007 10:18:11 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 10:26:25 [Permalink]
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Another short response to Bill's bullshit on how lack of extreme personal sacrifices prove that people don't really believe in global warming:
Bill, I keep thinking about this, and I realized something. Since a single individual's actions don't by themself contribute greatly to global warming, a selfish person who believes in global warming would react every differently from an altruistic person who also believes in global warming.
Let's say Bob is a very selfish middle class American who is convinced that global warming is real and will affect the world in his lifetime. And let's say Joe is equally convinced, but he's a very altruistic middle class American. What would they do differently?
Bob would do everything he can to accumulate wealth. He would only do things to reduce carbon emissions if and only if they didn't inhibit his ability to gain more personal wealth. He would do this because he would realize that global warming will hurt the poor and lower middle classes far more than it will hurt the rich. The rich can move to nicer places on the planet. The rich can afford the rising costs of necessities.
Now Joe, he'd persistently write his representatives, newspapers, go to town meetings, get involved in either a political party or non-profit and put many volunteer hours into lobbying for more green policies. In his personal life, he'd re-structure his whole lifestyle to cut down on his own personal contribution to global warming, but not so much that he wouldn't be able to do his activist work anymore, because he realizes that changes in policy will have more impact than any individual's sacrifices.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/11/2007 10:29:02 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 13:51:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
I don't know off hand what the name for this kind of illogic is...
It's another strawman. He's taken your obvious meaning, and because he couldn't combat it successfully, he built from it a ridiculous caricature that's easy to defeat. Fighting men made from straw is a lot easier than fighting real enemies - the logical fallacy makes its appearance when after shredding a strawman, one declares victory against the true argument. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 16:05:42 [Permalink]
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Bill's whole "if MMGW is real then why don't you..." rant was already answered by marf, but I'd just like to add my 2 cents.
In Bill's argument, you can substitute MMGW for whichever "threat" or horrible thing you want and it would not say anything about the reality of said nastiness.
Examples:
If there is a genocide going on in Darfur, then why don't you...
If children are dying from easily treated diseases, then why don't you...
Some people do nothing about these things, even though they could. From that it does not follow that these things are not occurring or even that said people doubt that they do. To claim that it does (and I'm not 100% sure that Bill does regarding climate change) is a non-sequiteur.
As has already been pointed out, it is very easy to do nothing when your individual contribution to a cause will have a very small effect. After all, if 1 billion (or a million or a thousand) people are required to change their ways, why would it matter if little I do anything? I might as well continue lapping in luxury and let everyone else make the sacrifice. This is, of course, the reason why certain initiatives (like tackling climate change) have to come from a "higher power" (and by that I mean governmental). I might be painting a rather grim and negative view of humanity here, but I seriously doubt that mere individual idealism will be able to tackle certain issues. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 16:49:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
You should be on the China attack then.
Start by cleaning out your bloody house before starting on them!
That's what we are doing in Sweden, and Europe by the way.
What was it Jesus said again? Take the log out of your own eye, before...?
China is not a large polluter neither per capita nor per area. But they are a developing country that do recognize the benefit of a clean environment, and are showing interest in cleaner production. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 07:54:23 [Permalink]
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On the subject of 2x4's
My Pastor this morning at my mens breakfast made an interesting comment. It was regarding Imus and Al Sharpton. (This going somewhere trust me). We all thought Imus was wrong and generally did like his show. We (not my pastor) thought that Al Sharpton was a hyprocrite for his leading the charge.
Pastor Jim said there is a double standard but would we have preferred a race riot? He spoke from experience in France. Where there was no voice for the rioters.
Enter the 2x4
Would I prefer Al Gore to "hock and whore" environmental causes, and green technology for political gain or be blissfully un-aware until I see the green green grass of Gnome Alaska?
Pastor Jim pointed out whether you like the individual or not he gives voice to a legitimate concern. Al Sharpton with race relations and disparity. Al Gore with the environment.
So I am changing my view. If the threat of imminent and permanent damage to the environment can motivate people to a critical mass on environmentally friendly technology, energy consumption and be better stewards of the Earth, then I am with him.
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Political hacks water down global warming report
